Merchants of Change

00:00:03:23 - 00:00:28:15
Speaker 1
I'm J.R. Butler, co-founder of the Chef Crew. And you're listening to Merchants of Change. Oh, this is a podcast about transferring the skills and behaviors we acquire as athletes into being a professional technology salesperson. Each week, we'll introduce you to a top performer who will help us understand how they became professional merchants of change.

00:00:33:05 - 00:00:35:10
Speaker 1
All right, what's up, kid? How are we doing, John?

00:00:35:22 - 00:00:38:10
Speaker 2
Doing good, brother. Doing good. Good to see you, J.R..

00:00:39:07 - 00:00:55:02
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for joining us today. We're fine. I'm fired up about this man. I listen to so many of your podcasts and you know, I. I play back a lot of your stories. One of my favorite ones is who's doing this? Hopefully we can get into that a little bit.

00:00:55:03 - 00:00:56:08
Speaker 2
Awesome. Awesome.

00:00:57:00 - 00:01:25:19
Speaker 1
So, John, the podcast is called Merchants of Change. It's really for new sellers and a lot of people that are thinking about a career in sales. Our mission my mission is to try to really help transform elite athletes into elite sales professionals. And I think, you know, when I think of that transition, your career is is is exhibit A of this playing out in real life.

00:01:25:20 - 00:01:43:09
Speaker 1
So we like to start with the sports and then get into the sales and the transition. So I'd love to kind of give everybody a little bit of a taste on your athletic background. Obviously, football guy, Boise State, Bowling Green, what are some of your fondest memories of playing sports, John?

00:01:44:00 - 00:02:20:03
Speaker 2
Well, you know, when you started off in the intro and and you talked about elite athletes transitioning to elite salespeople, I got 50% of that. I wouldn't consider myself an elite athlete. I, I, I loved I loved my fond memories of about competing in, about, you know, college football. I really got lucky. So I was able to play with a national championship team out in Boise, Idaho.

00:02:20:09 - 00:03:01:23
Speaker 2
How I got out there is a whole nother story that we don't have enough time because I'm from Detroit and so I had some issues. I had some issues in in in high school that kind of had me go out 2000 miles away from home. But the people that I met out there and just in really, they're still dear friends of mine today in both schools and and I was able to you know, I was able to get letters, letter as a freshman and they Boise State had a couple of issues just back in that time with some things that were going on with the NCAA.

00:03:02:11 - 00:03:24:14
Speaker 2
And I was able to transfer to Bowling Green, which was closer to where I'm from in in Michigan. So my parents could then get a chance to see me play. They didn't get a chance to see me play out in in Idaho. But, you know, I would say, you know, my fondest memories I was thinking about this is like the work, like, believe it or not, it was the work.

00:03:24:14 - 00:03:54:15
Speaker 2
It was the it was the physicality. I was a little bit of a knucklehead on defense and the physicality of being able to completely spend, you know, energy and and, you know, laying like Vince Lombardi talks about laying on the battlefield, you know, exhausted and victorious. And then what I've really come to really covet now, J.R., is the relationships with my buddies, like and I, I go back and speak to the school.

00:03:54:15 - 00:04:13:13
Speaker 2
I spoke to Bowling Green last year, and it was a blast for me to go back and speak to the team. And I remember saying to them, You're going to undress to make the relationships with these teammates. You're going to underestimate it. You know, you're going to I said, look to the left. You look to the right of you like they told me to do.

00:04:13:13 - 00:04:28:14
Speaker 2
And you know, somebody is not going to be here and blah, blah, blah. And I took it forward and I said, you know, somebody is going to die early and and somebody is going to get their family is going to get into trouble and somebody is going to really make it, you know, outside of football and do some really, really great things.

00:04:28:14 - 00:04:45:18
Speaker 2
And and you're going to you're going to rely on each other later on in life. And so I really, really covet those relationships, have great relationships with folks from Boise State and and from Bowling Green. I've been really, really lucky. Really lucky.

00:04:46:20 - 00:04:52:09
Speaker 1
So. So you were a pretty aggressive defensive player. That was kind of your your the knucklehead dude.

00:04:52:09 - 00:05:20:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, I was I was pretty much a Neanderthal. I was I had no technique. I was pretty dominant in high school. And I was very, very physical, very aggressive. I was a linebacker and what a covered up. And, you know, all joking aside, what it covered up was when you can dominate like that in high school, you you're you're not sure whether or not you have fundamentals.

00:05:20:11 - 00:05:43:04
Speaker 2
And I didn't have the fundamentals when I went to college. I was behind. I had to I had to really, really catch up. And I'm not sure I ever caught up. I, I, I really when, when you can physically dominate people because you're bigger and stronger and you can run faster and then you get to college and everybody's the same size and everybody's the same strength.

00:05:43:04 - 00:06:00:19
Speaker 2
And, you know, the way they're lifting weights is like, holy smokes. And so, yeah, so that, that, that's a got a pretty good character is a zation of me is that you know pretty aggressive a little bit behind fundamentally and I spent the majority of my career trying to catch up.

00:06:02:01 - 00:06:09:00
Speaker 1
And it sounds like your teammates would describe you as like a great a great team guy, great locker room presents. Is that fair?

00:06:09:04 - 00:06:35:02
Speaker 2
No, actually. Okay. Now, today, not today. If I'm being completely transparent and knowing what you do for a living, you're going to make this podcast successful. So it's going to go out there in the stratosphere. So let me tell you how my my teammates would probably describe me back in the day as angry. I was an angry individual for some different reasons that, you know, worked in my favor.

00:06:35:02 - 00:06:56:01
Speaker 2
And then, you know, later on in life, they don't work in your favor so much so. But they've seen me transition. I think I became a great teammate. J.R But I became a great teammate after I think I'm a great teammate today. I think they would say that I'm a good friend and a good teammate. I show up for my teammates, they show up for me.

00:06:57:05 - 00:07:29:08
Speaker 2
I'm not sure I did that back in the day. I kind of underestimated that. As I told you one thing I think they would describe me as is I, although I was a knucklehead, my first play at at Boise State, I got hit by this dude named Paul Dilulio. And Paul Dilulio was the blocking back for Marcus Allen at USC when Marcus Allen won the Heisman Trophy and he was probably six foot 162, £240.

00:07:29:08 - 00:07:53:08
Speaker 2
He was a native of Boise, Idaho, but he played for USC. He played three years for USC. And J.R., if you Google the guy, it's amazing. Started for three years at USC and he just got homesick. And so he transfers to Boise State. And so it's my first play is like a scrim aware of and drills I don't know and J I'ma tell you what, he hit me so hard.

00:07:53:08 - 00:08:23:16
Speaker 2
So I was probably £210 linebacker, you know, when he was 240, he's a full back. He hit me so hard, but for the first time in my life, I'm on my back. I never got knocked on my back until that first play at Boise State. And this is truth. This is really truth in that moment. I remember in that day, I remember that I said, dude, you better hit your books because you are not going to be a professional football player.

00:08:24:05 - 00:08:45:23
Speaker 2
And I remember being okay with that. A lot of people get crushed with that. I was very aware why everything was fast. You know, high school was boring, everything was slow, everything was moving slow. In college, man. It was so fast. And so I think how my friends, my teammates would have described me as I really hit the books hard.

00:08:45:23 - 00:08:59:13
Speaker 2
I was always getting good grades. I was always, you know, taking the business classes. I was very, very focused on what I was going to do for a living other than football. And I got lucky. I got hit by Paul Dilulio on the first on the first play.

00:09:01:15 - 00:09:05:02
Speaker 1
So you almost got knocked into a career in sales, basically.

00:09:05:05 - 00:09:26:21
Speaker 2
But I did. I did. And well, you know, so in the summertime when I transferred back, I had to sit out a year and sorry if I cut you off. I think you're going to ask me, like, so how did I think about sales? I got really lucky. So one of the guys that helped me transition to the Mid-America Conference was a gentleman.

00:09:26:21 - 00:09:52:09
Speaker 2
God rest his soul. He just passed away this year, and. And I was really honored to be able to give part of his eulogy. And his his name is Ron Grenadier. And Ron Grenadier was the recruiter for Ohio State in Michigan. And he recruited, you know, great players like Jerome Foster, who played for Houston and Pepper Johnson, who you would know in Boston Peppers, a good friend of mine.

00:09:52:09 - 00:10:20:14
Speaker 2
And I worked with them in a in a warehouse. He he had athletes working for him. And as he was, you know, recruiting and getting, you know, I wasn't good enough to play for Ohio State, but Mr. Grenadier was very, very gracious for me and was just a wonderful human being and was at a good time in my life and and I would at the end of the day, I would sit in his office because he drove me.

00:10:21:00 - 00:10:41:02
Speaker 2
He drove me back and forth because, you know, was downtown Detroit was where the facility was. And then, you know, out in the suburbs where I lived and he lived pretty close to me. And he would pick me up and we would talk on the way to work and in and then we talk on the way back. But at the end of the day, I'd go and sit in his office and I would listen to him on the phones.

00:10:41:02 - 00:11:06:05
Speaker 2
And he was a dealmaker, J.R. Like he was working at man. It was it was a company called Wolverine Metal, and he was in the scrap metal business. But this dude was an incredible salesman. And I wouldn't say that I that's when I knew I wanted to be in sales. But, you know, the Mercedes he was driving and the big house that he lived in and, you know, being the boss and telling people what's what's what and what's happening.

00:11:06:05 - 00:11:26:10
Speaker 2
And I knew that I wanted to be in business. And and then I figured it out. And when I got to college, you know, and I got the Bowling Green, I took some, you know, more marketing. And they didn't have they still don't really have good sales classes today. So we can talk a little bit about that. But I knew that I wanted to be a businessman.

00:11:26:10 - 00:11:31:08
Speaker 2
I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And and and so that was a really, really good vision of it.

00:11:32:10 - 00:11:49:16
Speaker 1
That is awesome. And that entrepreneurial kind of thug is such a good fit for sales. And I think a lot of athletes have that. A lot of the data tells us that athletes have that. What what do you think are some of the other reasons that athletes should consider selling as a career?

00:11:50:05 - 00:12:17:13
Speaker 2
Well, you know, for me, I didn't contemplate it back then, but it was such a smooth transition for me. It was it was effort. And so the harder you worked, the more opportunity you had to play. So just like in sports, it doesn't mean that you're going to play, but it means you have more opportunities to play, doesn't mean you're going to beat the guy out or the gal out ahead of you.

00:12:18:02 - 00:12:47:11
Speaker 2
But it means that you're going to have an opportunity to, because without the effort, you're not going to have it at all. So that direct correlation of effort, playbooks, you know, having to learn a playbook, having to learn a system, collaboration, teamwork, all that stuff is second nature to to athletes. And the the icing on the cake, J.R., is meritocracy, where, you know, you get rewarded for how you perform.

00:12:47:11 - 00:13:17:00
Speaker 2
And I'm not talking about the nil and that stuff now, that stuff didn't exist when you know, licensing didn't exist when we when we were back in the day. But, you know, in four, four, it did. When I went to Xerox and PTC, it is like, okay, if I outwork people and if I learn the playbook and if I spend extra time watching film or whatever the translation, the equivalent is, and I be the best that I can be by focusing on the fundamentals, I get paid.

00:13:17:18 - 00:13:47:00
Speaker 2
I get paid. And so for your listeners that have been fortunate enough to make it into professional sports, that transition is really, really powerful and pretty smooth. It's for me, I think it's the it is the the best correlation of of sports is going in the sales. It has all of the ear markings for it and you got good coaches and you got bad coaches, but you still have to perform.

00:13:47:07 - 00:14:10:14
Speaker 2
It's like it doesn't matter. You know, the excuse department is close. You know that sign on the shirt that I'm going to get made up. I love it. It's like nobody cares. Work harder. All of that translates into the business world, into sales. And and I think that I really highly encourage I do it all the time. I'm on the phone with athletes all the time.

00:14:10:14 - 00:14:39:17
Speaker 2
They call me and and kids that, you know, my kids kids, my kids friends and that kind of stuff. I always I always am really keen on talking to former athletes because, you know, they're used to putting in the work. I'm not telling you it is a 100% no brainer, but it is the best environment. The closest environment probably that you've that you've been involved with in transitioning into sales.

00:14:39:17 - 00:14:47:02
Speaker 2
I'm really, really high on that concept. That's that's why I love what you do for a living. I think it's just I think it's just fantastic.

00:14:48:00 - 00:15:09:20
Speaker 1
Yeah. We, we talk constantly. We have a we have a course on like sales as a team sport. And this idea that like as a sales rep, you're like the quarterback and your job is to bring in all these tertiary kind of groups and people to help you serve the customer. And like, if 90% of the kids we ask, you know, what do you miss most about sports?

00:15:09:20 - 00:15:24:18
Speaker 1
They all say that the locker room, the team. Yeah, when we talk about that, you get that right back on day one as a seller, including the coach, including the mentor that you're missing. Yeah. And I definitely want to get into to Xerox and pizza.

00:15:24:18 - 00:15:48:03
Speaker 2
But stay on that one for just a second because this collaboration thing, I think people under estimate there's a lot of athletes, especially ones that go to the pros, that they rose above the rest of their teammates and therefore, they might have gotten special treatment or they might have not had to have done all the things. You got to be careful, because if you were an elite athlete, I'll just be completely transparent.

00:15:48:12 - 00:16:08:04
Speaker 2
The best sellers I've ever seen, the best business people I've ever seen that were athletes. They were walk ons right on. They were walk ons. And so they knew well, and I'm not saying they didn't become great, but they knew what it took to be great. And sometimes people just have DNA and they have experiences where they are blessed.

00:16:08:04 - 00:16:29:12
Speaker 2
And a lot of people that go on to the pros you get, you just got a better chance of being hit by lightning than playing a professional sport. So if you go on to be an elite athlete, you have to kind of keep that in check a little bit. There's nothing worse than an elite athlete that doesn't know why they're elite, and therefore they can't capitalize on the things that they do while they can't teach others.

00:16:30:05 - 00:17:01:12
Speaker 2
Some of them struggle to be coaches because they because they they can't explain why they're so why they're so great. The last thing on that is the collaboration piece. All sales jobs today. You know, if you go into software, let's say, you know, 99% of them are are software as a service and they are, you know, collaboration a collaboration sale where you're you're moving along with the use of that product, with the buyer of that product.

00:17:01:12 - 00:17:23:21
Speaker 2
And so different people are introduced into that buyer's journey. So if you if you were somebody that were like if you were an offensive lineman in football and you knew what the guard was doing and you knew what the tight end was doing, or if you were a receiver and you knew what the other receivers were doing, if you were a quarterback, they do really well because they're familiar with what everybody's doing.

00:17:23:21 - 00:17:44:13
Speaker 2
The message I'm giving you is learn what everybody's doing in that environment. If you're just a seller today, you're going to be a seller, okay, I'm a left back. I'm going to learn my job and be a left tackle. You're at risk a little bit because you have to go back and understand. Even if you're a great left tackle, you still knew what the left guard was doing.

00:17:44:19 - 00:18:08:07
Speaker 2
You still knew what the tight end was doing. That'll come out big time in in in your selling career and tap into what everybody's doing in the sales process. It'll make you a better seller by knowing what everybody else is responsible for. Does that make sense? Makes I took so long on that but I think it's a really, really good point.

00:18:08:13 - 00:18:25:22
Speaker 2
And by the way, when you're interviewing, don't just talk about what made you great and how great you were at your position or what have you. Don't forget to tap into being a student of really understanding what everybody on the field was doing that's going to help you in sales. Sure.

00:18:26:16 - 00:18:49:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. I'm understanding those swim lessons and why they're important and how you leverage them. Yeah. Makes a huge difference. Huge difference. And I also think like obviously we're focused on getting most of the people we we place are getting their first sales job right. And I'm so excited to get your take on this because of where you started your career.

00:18:49:17 - 00:19:15:15
Speaker 1
We have a lot of conversations about, you know, because because we have so many hiring partners and we get them in front of a bunch of opportunities and then they get offers and it's like base salary. Here's your key, here's the benefits. You know, you're going to work in the office first, you're going to be remote. And like I have some strong beliefs of what they should be looking for in their first company and I know you have an incredible experience around this.

00:19:15:16 - 00:19:28:01
Speaker 1
Can you can you just talk about like what should what should candidates looking into their first sales role? What should they be really looking for for that potential employer? Like, what do you think are the things that matter the most?

00:19:28:23 - 00:20:06:13
Speaker 2
Well, I think especially for, you know, you could say this is for anybody, but it's I think it's also even more acute for for former athletes is I think you want to look for a culture of coaching. You want to look to get into an environment where the company has a culture of coaching. When you think about it, you know, unless you were just like a freak superstar DNA and they exist, like, you know, you could be a little bit of risk there if you didn't like you didn't really need coaching or what have it, you're going to need it in sales.

00:20:07:03 - 00:20:25:10
Speaker 2
You know, make no mistake about it, you're going to need it in sales. And so when you can go into an environment that has a culture of coaching and how do you know that like you ask questions to this hiring manager that's interviewing you and don't underplay that interview. That interview is 50% of that is for them to vet you.

00:20:25:16 - 00:20:45:20
Speaker 2
The other 50% is for you to vet them and you have to take advantage of that. So I ask questions like, Give me an example of a coaching experience that you're most proud of. I asked the hiring manager that, like, give me an example of, you know, who do I remind you of the most and how did you coach them?

00:20:46:03 - 00:21:10:22
Speaker 2
And I ask them to get real specific, not generic. This is how I coach and this is how give me examples of people that have benefited from your coaching, because there's a lot of times you go into organizations and there's just bad coaches, and if there's bad coaches, you need to know. That doesn't mean you're not going to go to the company, but then you got to make a decision, okay, how am I going to get up to speed now?

00:21:10:22 - 00:21:29:11
Speaker 2
I might have to look at more some of the veterans and some of the senior people, but that's something that I really want to know. Let's get technical for a second. Let's look at the product and let's look at the addressable market. You got to understand how big is this opportunity, how big is the addressable market or is this little niche thing that surprises me?

00:21:29:11 - 00:21:55:03
Speaker 2
How many people really don't think about that and then they just run out of runway. So we sold it to all the people we can sell it to and now we're struggling a little bit. We've got a small addressable market. Another thing that I want to look for is does the buyer understand what they're buying? Does the buyer am I going to have to be the person that has to explain to the buyer what this is and how they're buying it?

00:21:55:03 - 00:22:23:18
Speaker 2
Or do they have some history of buying something like I'm selling? It's a completely different sale. You know, there's people that are evangelists, sellers that are gone, they're educating the marketplace or there is a problem and a need that a customer understands. And so they understand that problem very well and they have a history of buying. I like to move into sales careers in the beginning where the buyer has a history of buying.

00:22:23:18 - 00:22:27:15
Speaker 2
Those are some those are some of the big ones. For me, what I leave out are.

00:22:28:20 - 00:22:45:16
Speaker 1
Well, I think like going back to the product, right. Like, like you, you, I used to use the term missionaries versus mercenaries. I think yours is patriots versus mercenaries. Like I think it's important to have a belief in the mission right. And be able to get passionate about it. Right. So take that.

00:22:45:18 - 00:23:12:18
Speaker 2
That has a lot to do with I love it. Thank you for reminding me of that. Like I'm big on this concept of I call it patriots versus missionaries and you know, whatever you do, you're going to have to wake up in the morning, you're not going to have to. But the most elite, happiest, most engaged business people I've ever met wake up in the morning and believe what they do matters.

00:23:13:09 - 00:23:36:15
Speaker 2
And so companies that do a really good job with explaining the why of it makes the how in the what simple like you think about a football coach gets fired up. I remember in 1997, my favorite team, the University of Michigan, Lloyd Carr, was coaching Universe Michigan. And they had this they were they were together as a team.

00:23:36:23 - 00:24:01:20
Speaker 2
They were they were climbing a mountain and the championship national championship game was reaching the summit. And it worked out perfect. It worked out perfect because, like, every game was like important and they were moving up the mountain. And so the kids weren't thinking about, you know, base camp won, like, how suck. We're in base camp one and you know, you got to get up at, oh, dark 30 and you can't breathe.

00:24:01:20 - 00:24:17:23
Speaker 2
And like, so if you know, you got to run these sprints at 530 in the morning or what have you, if you got people just running sprints at 530 in the morning, you you lose your perspective of why are we doing this? Like we're doing this so we can reach the summit. We want to win the national championship.

00:24:17:23 - 00:24:40:20
Speaker 2
And that was a really good example, good learning experience for me back in 1997 when I read about that. And then it made me think about patriots and mercenaries because at PTC we struggled a bit. It, you know, we went 43 straight quarters, J.R., with never missing our number two Wall Street. That's ten years of never missing over ten years of never missing our number to Wall Street.

00:24:40:23 - 00:24:55:12
Speaker 2
And that's double digit profitable revenue growth. And the stock split five times in seven years went from 0 to $1000000000. Okay, all that's great. But guess what? The first time we missed our number two, Wall Street. Wall Street.

00:24:55:12 - 00:24:55:21
Speaker 1
Cut.

00:24:55:21 - 00:25:21:03
Speaker 2
Our valuation. They cut our stock price in half. Let me tell you what happened. We lost half of the folks. And I don't want to be I don't want to say that they weren't patriots or mercenaries or whatever. But the first time I really thought about this and there was I watched a lot of people leave when the culture is all about the stock price and leaders get lazy a little bit.

00:25:21:03 - 00:25:41:13
Speaker 2
And sometimes that's all you're talking about is the stock price and the wealth. And if that ever gets under pressure, then what happens is if that's what the culture is based on and think about it now, valuations of companies growth with all these economic headwinds. I'm watching it right now, J.R. I'm watching cultures get a little shaky because they've built it.

00:25:41:13 - 00:26:05:16
Speaker 2
Some of them, you know, missionaries like plants and and equity that you get in the company and blah, blah, blah. It starts with what you do matters and why you do what you do and what impact does it have and do you get energy from doing that or not? And let me tell you the difference between patriots and mercenaries, man.

00:26:05:16 - 00:26:30:08
Speaker 2
The mercenaries, they drop their guns and go home when the cops at risk or the equity's at risk. What are the Patriots do, J.R.? They go home, they break up their furniture, they find all the metal parts in their furniture and they melted down to make bullets in. And I've been a part of that before. Like I've been a part of those cultures that were more, you know, missionary based mercenary.

00:26:30:08 - 00:26:53:03
Speaker 2
I've been, say, a missionary. Sorry, I meant to say mercenary. Big difference between missionary and mercenary. Sorry, mercenary. When the mercenaries are at risk of get paid or what have you, they drop their guns, they go find something else to do. The next place to get paid. Patriots melt down their furniture for bullets and and I want to be I want to be among a group of patriots.

00:26:53:03 - 00:27:17:08
Speaker 2
I want to be you know, that's those are cultures that can transcend problems and challenges economics and with COVID. 2008 2001 to 2003, you know, for people to get into sales now, you're going to find your next bid. It's going to happen. And are you going to be in a group of you know, you're going to be with a group of patriots.

00:27:17:08 - 00:27:36:00
Speaker 2
You're going to be with a group of, you know, mercenaries. And and I highly suggest you vet that out. You can ask the question like, hey, if I asked, is your culture more like mercenaries or is it more like patriots? Ask that to the hiring manager and see what they come up with. Think it's a great interview question for you.

00:27:36:20 - 00:27:51:04
Speaker 1
That's nominal. What? So, you know, Xerox and PTC, two of the most legendary kind of sales organizations ever. Can you just talk a little bit like, you know, getting started at Xerox, what that was like?

00:27:51:16 - 00:28:12:20
Speaker 2
I was so lucky did I was so lucky. My brother worked for Xerox and at the time they believed in DNA and nepotism. And I don't want to say nepotism, but that's a negative word about it. But, you know, if you're not you know, they had fathers and daughters and mothers and sons and they had they believed it was in the DNA.

00:28:12:20 - 00:28:34:10
Speaker 2
So if it if it was part of your family, there were a lot of families that that that worked at Xerox is a really, really cool place to work. When I went there back in the mid eighties and they were also it's where professional selling skills really took off and that's what they call the professional scaling skills. They were so good at it that they packaged it up and they sold it to other companies.

00:28:34:18 - 00:29:01:12
Speaker 2
And I was really lucky to get trained there. You know, Neil Rackham came up with spin selling, which was discovery questions around situation problem implication needs payoff. That was spin selling and that was developed while he was working with Xerox Corporation. So we learned all of that. So I got extremely lucky. The Art of Discovery, which I think is a fundamental, is, is one of the fundamentals.

00:29:01:12 - 00:29:30:05
Speaker 2
And I got really, really lucky learning that there was, you know, all about the customer and uncovering problems, you know. And then I worked for PTC, and PTC had a dominant product and it was all about accountability and it was all about, you know, eliminating competition. It was all about execution. And PTC was the most accountable, most phenomenal execution company I've ever seen in my life.

00:29:30:05 - 00:29:56:08
Speaker 2
It was it was a really unbelievable time. It was like it was like being a part of the Navy SEALs. It was elite. It was, you know, the people that have gone from PTC and gone out. I think they've created something like it's got to be way. Last time, like seven years ago when I checked, it was over $300 billion in market valuation out, in, out in the marketplace.

00:29:56:08 - 00:30:16:17
Speaker 2
I think it's probably double that now. It was just a really, really incredible place. But, you know, it was tough, man. It was like if you didn't make your number, you were out. And so it was you had to be very, very accountable. So if I put those two together, I learned about the customer and then I learned how to take our solution.

00:30:16:17 - 00:30:40:04
Speaker 2
So I learned about the customer at Xerox and how to do discovery. And I learned about how to take my product through a great sales process and map it to those customer problems and eliminate competition and hold myself accountable for all the steps that it would take to do that. And that's where those two worlds came together. So I was extremely lucky to work for two companies like that.

00:30:41:04 - 00:31:01:09
Speaker 1
I think Navy SEAL is a good way to describe that pizza culture. Yeah, I'm like, I'm lucky enough, like, born and raised in Boston. So I've been surrounded by a lot of pizza, DNA. I was lucky enough a few weeks ago to to play golf with two of your buddies, Chris Rice and John McMahon and.

00:31:01:09 - 00:31:02:21
Speaker 2
Our middle people. Phenomenal.

00:31:02:23 - 00:31:17:01
Speaker 1
And we and like literally when I brought up pizza like their eyes lit up, right? Like they talk about the you know, the quarters they're like tours of duty. Yeah. What's your what's your favorite memory about being a pizza?

00:31:18:12 - 00:31:44:21
Speaker 2
Holy smokes, dude. So many. I will tell you, you know, one of my favorite memories, truth be told. So there are PTC hired me out of Xerox. I wasn't an engineer. I had no experience with manufacturing. I never sold software before. I was selling hardware at Xerox. And these birds hire me to be a a leader, a sales leader.

00:31:45:14 - 00:32:05:20
Speaker 2
So I'd never sold software before. And I you know, in retrospect, I'm so glad I didn't overthink that, because if I had over thunk it, man, I'm all smokes. Well, I got to tell you, J.R., my first six months, I came close to, if we're talking about Navy SEALs, and if I'm being truthful, I came close to ringing the bell.

00:32:06:02 - 00:32:24:07
Speaker 2
I was a little bit older than the other guys that started it, the other men and women that started at PTC. So I had three kids and, you know, I, I think I was probably like 32. Yeah, I think it's probably like 32 years old and a lot of people were starting, you know, probably maybe five years before that.

00:32:24:19 - 00:32:47:06
Speaker 2
And so I had a lot of pressure in, you know, I moved my family was still in Detroit and I moved down to North Carolina. And the first six months, Bob, I, I, I was doing a lot of reflection then and I'm so glad that I stuck with it. So I went from April to December. Probably April to December was just brutal for me.

00:32:47:06 - 00:33:08:10
Speaker 2
And then my first real full year was with PTC. I was the number one district manager in North America. And I got to tell you, that's just that's as great as any honor. I had a lot of great things happen to me at PTC that was as great as any honor that I ever had because I knew what it actually meant to me.

00:33:08:10 - 00:33:31:00
Speaker 2
And I remember real quiet moments thinking to myself, I'm not going to make it here and not that I'm a quitter, but I had my family, I had a family responsibility to do. I went from like $150,000 salary at Xerox to a $40,000 salary at PTC. It's true story. And I remember talking to John McMahon when he was recruiting me and he was like, Hey, John.

00:33:31:00 - 00:33:49:07
Speaker 2
And he was gracious because most people, he'd say, If you're asking me about that, you're the wrong person. But Johnny and I have talked about it since then. We're dear friends now, and he remembers the conversation. He remember saying to me, Hey, John, you're not coming here for salary. Let me explain to you what's going to happen to you here.

00:33:50:03 - 00:34:11:21
Speaker 2
You're going to make three times the amount of money you were making at Xerox. And it's going to be really, really hard and it's going to be the hardest thing that you've ever done professionally. And everything that he told me came true. And he, like, I want to say, kind of like undersold that a little bit, meaning it was way harder than we even talked about.

00:34:12:10 - 00:34:36:23
Speaker 2
But to be truthful, I will tell you, that's one of the fondest memories that I have. I still have that watch that they gave me and you know, it's not a great watch IMO, but for me it still sits prominently for me because what it meant was like I took on something new and I got knocked on my frickin tail and and I figured it out and, and I'm really, really of that.

00:34:36:23 - 00:35:00:15
Speaker 2
So my fondest memory. I got a lot though, dude. I have all the people I met, you know, all those people that, you know in Boston, the relationships, you know, we get together for reunions. We got one coming up. And and it's incredible how many people show up to these things. And and what's incredible also, J.R., is like, the success of these people is phenomenal.

00:35:00:15 - 00:35:03:08
Speaker 2
It was just a it was a really, really cool place to be.

00:35:04:11 - 00:35:10:00
Speaker 1
It's crazy to tree out of PTC is like Belichick or football it's just.

00:35:10:11 - 00:35:47:16
Speaker 2
It is crazy and we all had it like when you say that J.R., we had to have a downline and you were evaluated by your downline, you could have been the greatest leader in the world. But if you didn't produce other leaders, you were not going to progress in that company. And when you think about like we can talk about Chris Reiser, Chris Reiser has his own downline and people that are like Chris Rice people, John McMahon has his downline, which was, you know, bigger we all in John McMahon's downline John Hanlin has his Caplin has is Wilson has his Tim Cave Vince has his Terry Powers has and Gary has hers.

00:35:48:00 - 00:36:13:08
Speaker 2
Tammy Sexton has hers. It's just, you know, all of the people have down lines and typically, you know, those downloads go to like EMC and then they go to like you'll see these factions of people, you know, mark crannies, people that went to ops where and then went into, you know, HP and, you know, McMahon's people went into Blade Logic and BMC and it's just phenomenal.

00:36:13:08 - 00:36:17:05
Speaker 2
Like you can always trace it back to the downloads really cool.

00:36:18:08 - 00:36:42:14
Speaker 1
And I you know you talk about like inspiring that next group of leaders is really what those guys have done right. And I think I remember when I was thinking about starting Shift Group, I reached out to you to tell you a little bit about it and you went through a similar transition where you went from sales and sales leadership into, you know, starting force management.

00:36:42:14 - 00:37:09:05
Speaker 1
And, you know, as a as a student of force management, I can honestly say, you know, learning the stuff that you guys teach at Turbo Change, the trajectory of my company or my career excuse me, in our company, candidly, like we increase conversion rates. We, you know, everybody was was playing from the same. Like there was just such a shift in the culture and the way that we approached our business.

00:37:09:12 - 00:37:16:19
Speaker 1
Like, how did you like how did you first start thinking about starting what, what is really like a teaching company? But what was your story?

00:37:17:10 - 00:37:42:22
Speaker 2
I'd love for this to be a great story. It is. Let me be really transparent to you. So my father passed away in 2001 and I was in Europe and I had been in Europe for five years. I was supposed to be there for two years. I was there for five years. And I'm sitting on an airplane. I'm sitting on an airplane in 2001 and I'm looking around and I was commuting.

00:37:42:22 - 00:38:04:22
Speaker 2
So was at that time I was probably brought in the international ops team in my office was in London and I was living in Frankfurt, Germany, some commuting every week to London. And I'm looking around and I'm looking at all these people and I'm like, These people look awful. It's the same people that are on that 7 a.m. flight, you know, going to London from Frankfurt, same people every week.

00:38:04:22 - 00:38:24:02
Speaker 2
And like you kind of you kind of know each other, but nobody talks to anybody. You're just kind of like zombies, right? And I'm looking around like these people look off. I hope I don't look this bad. And it was like dark outside the lights on the inside. BROWN So I looked in the out the window and my reflection, I'm like, Oh, I look that bad.

00:38:24:13 - 00:38:48:07
Speaker 2
I look like hell. And so what I wound up doing was I'm like, Wait, what's missing on this airplane? This is a pivotal moment for me as actually Air Force management was started. I took out a little Lufthansa napkin and I wrote down in a circle, I said, passion. There's no passion on this plane. Like what you do matters and why you do what you do or what have you.

00:38:48:07 - 00:39:12:08
Speaker 2
So that was ringing in my head. And so I, I took out a little napkin. I wrote down passion. That's okay. What are the things that I'm passionate about? Well, I'm passionate about my faith. I'm passionate about my wife. I'm passionate about my children. I'm passionate about my ability to utilize my God given skills to create wealth. I'm passionate about my family, my biological family.

00:39:12:08 - 00:39:34:12
Speaker 2
I'm passionate about my friends. I'm passionate about my community. I still remember that vividly. And I said, okay, well, I flipped over the napkin. I said, Well, okay, let's talk about this work opportunity here. This like passionate about skills, like what are you passionate about there? And I said, Well, I really, really love coaching and developing people. I always thought I was going to be a high school football coach when I was growing up.

00:39:34:12 - 00:39:55:04
Speaker 2
When I was younger, I wanted to be like a coach. I wanted to be like, you know, I and I actually that's kind of what I do today is like I consider myself I'm just like a sales coach that stands up in front of people and, and, and does that. So I got really, really lucky. They said, okay, well, what will you coach like?

00:39:55:21 - 00:40:15:05
Speaker 2
What what will you coach and I so I started look at, you know, well, the things that I learned at Xerox and the things that I learned at PTC and the things that I've learned about business. And I started writing it down, and that's how force management was born. I landed when I got to London. I picked up the phone.

00:40:15:05 - 00:40:35:11
Speaker 2
I called my best friend, Grant Wilson. He has just come back from it was a monday and he was just coming back on the weekend from of a dear friend of ours whose twin brother committed suicide. So Grant was all turned upside down and he was all like, you know, the meaning of life and like we all do when we face those things.

00:40:35:23 - 00:40:55:07
Speaker 2
And so it's perfect timing. And he was commuting to Boston for four years from Charlotte. He had an apartment in Boston. And so I just was on the phone with them and we and that's how force management was born. And within a year we launched the company. I had to get my family back in, but that's how we launched the company and how we launched it.

00:40:55:07 - 00:41:18:19
Speaker 2
J.R was just going to be, you know, it was going to be a lifestyle company. And what I meant by a lifestyle company was we were looking for ways to replace our corporate incomes and then it just kind of took off. So and how did it take off? We picked up the phone and we called our network of former PTC people that were in different companies, the Thurmond's of the World, the McMahons of the world.

00:41:18:19 - 00:41:56:22
Speaker 2
And they you know, the first thing they said was, well, can you come in and be our VP of sales or what have you? You said, well, you know, we probably could do that, but we're trying to form this company. And I never thought it was going to turn into what it's turned into today. We've recapitalized, we've sold it twice a we're we're it's grown into something that has become, you know, probably the the premier provider of, you know, elite skills and and alignment methodologies for sellers for hand-to-hand combat skills.

00:41:57:08 - 00:42:18:11
Speaker 2
What if I'm being honest with you, if I told you is that what I was envisioning now? It wasn't. I wanted to be a better dad. Actually, my father was an incredible father. And I just wanted to be present with my family. And and I got lucky because I was able to be present with my family. Moved back to you know, the United States.

00:42:18:23 - 00:42:42:06
Speaker 2
I coached my kids in sports and watched them go do the things that I wasn't really able to do. And corporate America and again, I feel like I really got blessed and was lucky. But that's how force management started, dude. It was going to be a lifestyle company and and meaning that it was just going to be Grant and I just consulting and you know, it turned into something else, which I'm pretty proud of.

00:42:43:15 - 00:43:21:01
Speaker 1
You should be. It's, it's it's kind of ingratiate eating like the, the skills that created the Xerox and the pizzas of the world into these like next generation software sellers and companies and I think, you know, one of the things that I took away from my own experience with force management was like this idea of getting you don't think of them as fundamentals, but they really are like like and I think I know you're a huge believer in the fundamentals of selling and getting back to those and, you know, enjoying the process of mastering those fundamentals.

00:43:21:01 - 00:43:43:23
Speaker 1
So like our kids are a lot of the kids that we work with are kind of entry level kind of builders focusing on prospecting and getting into closing roles as quickly as possible. And we really harp on the fundamentals. So like from your perspective, what are what are the fundamentals for these early stage sellers that are looking to get into closing roles quickly?

00:43:43:23 - 00:44:08:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it's a really, really good question and I think it's really appropriate to like if you're an elite athlete, it means you do the fundamentals really, really well. Whether you realize that or not can't be elite if you don't have the fundamentals. Now, some people don't realize that it's the fundamentals that make them elite, but if you can kind of get in tune with that, then I think you'll have a tremendous advantage.

00:44:08:11 - 00:44:33:22
Speaker 2
And for sales, I think the fundamentals have been it's Egypt old it's it's it's old dirt. I think there are fun. We've talked about one of them, the fundamental of discovery in the art of discovery and learning how to ask great discovery questions and how to position discovery. Make it more about you. Excuse me. Make it more about an outside in and make it about the customer first and earn the right to make it about you.

00:44:33:22 - 00:45:16:22
Speaker 2
That's a whole topic there. But discovery is a clear fundamental attaching yourself to the biggest business issue learning how to attach technical pain to business outcomes is a fundamental skill that the most elite sellers on the planet do. And I think it's one that you just got to get mastery are influencing decision criteria with your differentiation is an elite skill so it's not just gathering requirements, it is understanding what the decision criteria is and influencing that decision criteria to make it more favorable through your differentiation and making it good for the customer.

00:45:16:22 - 00:45:36:07
Speaker 2
That's an elite skill. And then J.R., as you're well aware, being a voracious qualifier is an elite skill. When I say elite skill, I don't want to scare anybody. You got to start learning that now. I'm not saying it's like you go learn this, you know, ten years in sale this is what you got to be doing now in voracious qualifying.

00:45:36:07 - 00:46:19:12
Speaker 2
Just to make it simple, go find a company that that uses magic or MedPAC, get involved in that. That is the original qualification criteria that was started at PTC that led to the 43 straight quarters of, you know, incredible performance. I would go to a company or we're going to talk a little bit about, you know, go to my company and, you know, join the ascend their platform and learn those magic skills that'll give you a massive, massive fast start to a great selling career to be a voracious qualifier with qualification criteria, you know, of Medic and MedPAC.

00:46:20:23 - 00:46:27:22
Speaker 2
So those are the ones that I would say are like, you got to mask. Those are the fundament, those are the blocking and tackling of sales.

00:46:28:17 - 00:46:36:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. That the tying to the biggest business problem or business goal is something that it changed the way I sell forever.

00:46:37:12 - 00:46:37:19
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:46:38:00 - 00:47:01:10
Speaker 1
And I, and I can't emphasize that piece enough like it doesn't matter really what your product does, but if the outcomes are relevant to the C-suite, that's what you need to be talking about, right? You get relegated to who you sound like if you're talking about what they're talking about in earnings calls and in their in their ten ks, like that's that's who you're going to get connected with and be able to sell, right?

00:47:01:20 - 00:47:03:19
Speaker 2
Good brother. Good learning right there, Matt.

00:47:03:19 - 00:47:32:06
Speaker 1
Good learning how it works, man. And so historically, John, I've obviously I think our listeners are the same. We've always thought of force management as a group that descends into a sales, an existing sales organization, and it really does like a lot of deep work around improving performance from like the foundation of the message up. Right. Can you talk a little bit about some of these new initiatives you have going on that your team is working on?

00:47:32:06 - 00:47:50:05
Speaker 1
Because I think especially our listeners and you know, we've we've raised we try to raise them to be students of the game and try to find where can they go, get content where they can they go learn to become, you know, a sales pro, which we'll talk about. But what are some of those new initiatives you guys have going on at Force Management?

00:47:50:05 - 00:48:22:19
Speaker 2
Well, we talked a little bit about it. And and the reason why we came up with what we've come up with now. So we're launching a new platform called the Center and you can find it on Ascender Dot CEO. And this platform is all these skills that we're talking about. And it doesn't rely on whether your company this number one reason why we launched this platform is because people would call us and say, hey, you know, where can what books can I read?

00:48:23:03 - 00:48:46:19
Speaker 2
What where can I go to sharpen the saw? Where can I go to be a further student of the game? And first of all, I was just blown away by the number of people out there that were like committed to doing that. I mean, I feel like I've been like that my life. And I realized, well, there's lots of other people out there like that, but there's no place to go if your company doesn't, you know, invest in certain things.

00:48:46:19 - 00:49:06:02
Speaker 2
And so we came up with a B, the C platform, which we are incredibly, incredibly excited about. But learning these elite skills that I just talked about and then being a part of a community like of other people. So let's say you got a bad coach. Well, can you go? And what did I do? When I had a bad coach?

00:49:06:02 - 00:49:22:21
Speaker 2
I went to see who was starting ahead of me or what have you, and I watch film on them and I became my own coach and I said, What are the most elite players on the team doing? What are they doing on the field? What are they doing off the field? What are they eating? How are they, you know, holding themselves or what have you?

00:49:23:12 - 00:49:45:10
Speaker 2
And so for me, we wanted to create a community for people be able to do that. And then to top it off with certifications like we should be able to get something for it. So like if we're part of an elite community and we're part of putting in the work, I want to be able to go get recognized as, you know, being somebody that's putting in the work and and that's what the Ascender platform is.

00:49:45:12 - 00:50:05:21
Speaker 2
And I love the name Ascend there. I think about Lake Michigan in 1997 going for that national championship and they're climbing the mountain, they're sending up the mountain them. And so we're really, really, really excited about that. That is a it's been in the works for a while. We wanted to do it right with the technology. We wanted to make it easy for people to use.

00:50:05:21 - 00:50:15:01
Speaker 2
We wanted to make it value able. And so that is the that's the gem of, of what we've been working on for a little bit there.

00:50:15:20 - 00:50:44:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think any shift alumni keep your head on a swivel because I'm sure there's going to be some, some joint partnership there that we're going to get some some of it's going right to that. So let's go. You've talked a lot about and these are the last two questions. So this one's important one because one of the reasons I started Shift Group is because I was already mentoring a lot of like former hockey players and baseball players from my own network.

00:50:44:06 - 00:51:05:08
Speaker 1
Like really all shift group is is commercializing something that I've done for 15 years because in my mind I wouldn't be where I am. I wouldn't have accomplished what I've accomplished, you know, and gotten to the roles I've gotten to without the mentors that that kind of took me under their wing. Can you think of a favorite mentor of yours that you've had and what's the most important lesson they taught?

00:51:05:08 - 00:51:35:02
Speaker 2
He was that's my parents, Norm and Eileen Kaplan, God rest their souls. They were unbelievable, man. My, that's the last time I wore a uniform, too. That's the California ball. In 1985, we were ranked 20th in the nation. We go into Fresno, California, thinking, you know, and they were ranked 20th in the nation. It was a big game on ESPN and they beat us 51 to 7.

00:51:35:11 - 00:51:58:01
Speaker 2
But let me tell you let me tell you what I love about this picture, first of all, that's painted by there's so much symbolism here, brother, that's painted by a teammate of mine, Greg Johnson in Detroit. You got to look him up on the Internet. Greg dirty his his his name. His nickname was Dirty. Greg Johnson is an artist in Detroit.

00:51:59:05 - 00:52:19:15
Speaker 2
He was phenomenal artist back then. And I, I had this picture you should see the picture. It's unbelievable how he how he created this. And he probably can't see it too well here. But but that's the last time that I ever wore uniform. And I'll just tell you about my parents really quick. So my father was unbelievable. Smartest man ever met in my life.

00:52:19:19 - 00:52:50:23
Speaker 2
The smartest man I ever met in my life. And my father taught me how to handle my business, like to be accountable and to be responsible. And I struggled a little bit. So, you know, my mother here, my mother was an unbelievably beautiful woman. She was talented. She was an actress and she was a stewardess. And she gave up her career to raise four boys that that drove them that drove my mother, you know, in knots.

00:52:50:23 - 00:53:16:14
Speaker 2
And I tell you, she became a severe alcoholic and drug addict. And my father quit his job. We were living in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan. It was one of the wealthiest places with car companies. And my father was working with an advertising he was an advertising executive. And and we lost everything, dude. We lost our house. We lost we lost everything.

00:53:16:15 - 00:53:38:11
Speaker 2
But we didn't lose the family, dude. We did not lose the family. My three brothers went to the University of Michigan, the greatest university in the land. And they weren't athletes. They were the smart ones. And and they're doing unbelievable things. And raised families. And, you know, my father kept the family together. The his other knucklehead son, me, got an athletic scholarship.

00:53:38:11 - 00:53:58:13
Speaker 2
And so let me tell you what this woman did. So that's what my father taught me. Let me tell you what this woman did. She recovers, J.R. She recovers. And she goes on to go to school. At 40 years old, she she goes through she goes and she four points college and then she four points her master's program.

00:53:58:22 - 00:54:26:07
Speaker 2
And she comes out and she dedicates her life to substance abuse and counseling families on substance abuse. And my father passed away when she was seven. The she would have been 68 years old. The Department of Defense hired my mother to work on military bases around the world, J.R. She did it till she was 84 years old. 84 years old.

00:54:26:07 - 00:54:48:07
Speaker 2
She's working on military bases. She dedicated her life to the men and women and in armed forces to work with them, to not commit suicide. And that's what she dedicated her life to. So when you talk about like I know that not a lot of people, there's a lot of different stories and I know that I'm just lucky I was born into that.

00:54:48:12 - 00:55:13:01
Speaker 2
You know, my parents were the best mentors that that I ever had. Let me tell you what. Why this picture so profound for me? That year I tore my knee, and a week before the first ball game, that's the only game I played in. That's the only game that I played in. And I can't even get into the story of how badly I wanted to play.

00:55:13:01 - 00:55:36:23
Speaker 2
And we were, you know, 11 and all and we were just tearing up the conference and I was out. So long that the younger kids that, you know, I'm a senior and the younger kids are coming up and I just wasn't really that good for them to, you know, so they were being nice to me and encouraging me and saying, hey, you know, you're really good, your grades are good, you're going to go get a great job.

00:55:36:23 - 00:55:53:00
Speaker 2
And by the time this game rolled around, I think I did have already had an interview with Xerox and I wound up going there, but it wasn't about that for me, dude. I had to come back like I had to come back and I had to play and that is the only game I played in as a senior.

00:55:53:08 - 00:56:05:04
Speaker 2
And how fitting this is, it's just really symbolic for me. I know I'm giving you way more than want it, but but those are those are the best mentors I've ever had in my life. And I'm lucky. Did I'm lucky.

00:56:05:21 - 00:56:12:07
Speaker 1
You gave me goose bumps. I'm celebrating ten years of sobriety here in 18 days, John. So I.

00:56:12:07 - 00:56:14:05
Speaker 2
Buddy, congratulations.

00:56:14:06 - 00:56:22:22
Speaker 1
Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that that the mission and journey that your mom went on and to do what she did. That's so incredible.

00:56:23:19 - 00:56:26:20
Speaker 2
Thanks, buddy. She was incredible woman did incredibly.

00:56:27:05 - 00:56:51:04
Speaker 1
And my and my one of my biggest mentors is also my father's a legendary high school hockey coach here in Massachusetts in the Hockey Hall of Fame. And I'm the oldest of three boys. My my both my brothers, my division one hockey as well. One of them went on to the NHL and the Olympics. And when we were growing up, my dad used to say to us, listen, a lot of people play hockey, but there's not a lot of hockey players.

00:56:51:11 - 00:57:15:04
Speaker 1
Yeah, and he kind of instilled in us this idea of professionalism from a, from an early age of being a pro. And now we try to do that with the kids we work with. When they get into sales careers, we think it's the highest kind of nomenclature you can use to to kind of describe someone is a sales pro like you're this guy's a pro, this girl's a pro.

00:57:15:15 - 00:57:20:15
Speaker 1
What does that mean? This is the last question. What is being a sales pro? What does that mean to you, John?

00:57:22:06 - 00:57:50:18
Speaker 2
For me, it means being uncommon. It means being and being uncommon is about doing things that the common man or woman chooses not to do. And in sales, the things that I talked about, those fundamental skill sets, those are committing yourself to being the very best that you can be in it. The formula is really not that hard.

00:57:51:02 - 00:58:20:04
Speaker 2
It is learning the fundamentals and committing yourself to being uncommonly great with those fundamentals, like any other sport that any of your people have played and that they became a at, that was the formula and what the formula is now. And it's it's like putting that together. It's not just understanding what the fundamentals are. It's committing yourself to being uncommonly excellent to those fundamentals.

00:58:20:17 - 00:58:38:06
Speaker 2
And that's what being an elite professional salesperson, you'll hear people say, you know, student of the game or what have you. It's like, that's why we created a center is I wanted a place where people could go and do that. People would say, Okay, John, I get it, but where can I go and do that? What book can I read?

00:58:38:06 - 00:58:54:15
Speaker 2
And you know what? There's lots of books. My, you know, Johnny McMahon, one of my favorite people. And, you know, you should they everybody should read the qualified sales leader. That's a great book to read. And then okay, so like what else? And so that's why we wanted to create a center to give people a place to go.

00:58:54:23 - 00:59:03:10
Speaker 2
That's where the pros are going to go. That's well, that's where pros are going to be made in that community. So thanks for allowing. Allow me to talk about that, brother.

00:59:03:12 - 00:59:13:14
Speaker 1
No, thank you. Thank you for joining us. John and our alumni will know your voice because I make everybody listen to the Who's doing this episode.

00:59:13:16 - 00:59:18:19
Speaker 2
Oh, awesome. So yeah, that's one comment came from Brother Who's in this day.

00:59:19:07 - 00:59:20:14
Speaker 1
And this baby who's doing.

00:59:21:09 - 00:59:21:17
Speaker 2
A great.

00:59:21:23 - 00:59:34:09
Speaker 1
Job. Thank you so much, man. I'm really excited and we'll definitely continue the conversation on the back end on a partnership with a center and chef group. So thank you so much and really appreciate you joining us.

00:59:34:09 - 00:59:41:13
Speaker 2
John Thanks for having me, brother. Thanks to to all your listeners out there go beyond common.

00:59:41:13 - 01:00:04:08
Speaker 1
This wraps up this episode of Making Some Change. If you enjoyed this episode, the most meaningful way to say thanks is to submit a review wherever you listen to podcasts. If you're interested in working with us, please come find us at WW Dot Chef Group Dot I.