Merchants of Change

00:00:03:23 - 00:00:33:22
Speaker 1
I'm J.R. Butler, co-founder of the Chef Group. And you're listening to Merchants of Change. Oh, this is a podcast about transferring the skills and behaviors we acquire as athletes into being a professional technology salesperson. Each week, we'll introduce you to a top performer who will help us understand how they became professional merchants of change. Top kid. How are we doing?

00:00:34:16 - 00:00:55:19
Speaker 1
What's up, J.R.? How's it going? They're on. We got. We got my guy. One of the one of the reasons I started Shift Group is on the call. Jimmy Fahy from Miro. Jim Great to see you. Thanks for joining us today, buddy. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here. And congratulations on the success. Absolutely, man.

00:00:55:19 - 00:01:17:03
Speaker 1
Well, you laid the groundwork, pal. We've got we matched your story with a bunch of other guys. You've got you've helped us talk to a few people, so we're psyched to have you. So a little bit a little bit of background, John. Jim and I have known each other for I don't want to age myself here, but like 16 years.

00:01:18:07 - 00:01:27:09
Speaker 1
Jim grew up in Massachusetts. He's a hockey guy, played a team. He was a two year captain, one for state titles.

00:01:29:23 - 00:01:59:12
Speaker 1
Before going to Northeastern, he was a three time captain for the Huskies. And then he played 92 games in the NHL and finished up in Europe like my brother. So, Jim, thanks for joining us, buddy. Fun to have you. Yeah, happy to be here. Yeah. Looking forward to kind of talking a little bit about my experiences and hopefully it helps others kind of jump into, you know, the work that you've done in paving the way and making that transition a tight timeframe.

00:01:59:12 - 00:02:17:15
Speaker 1
And so there's a huge need for it. And I think, you know, there's a lot of companies out there that will certainly benefit from, you know, the skill sets that athletes bring to corporate America. Absolutely. So. So, Jim, from a structure perspective, we like to talk like athletic background and then we get into all the fun sales stuff.

00:02:17:15 - 00:02:42:06
Speaker 1
So I was I was checking out your hockey DB page and I saw your, your senior year in Northeast third, 46 points as a demon. What was that season like? Dude, that must have been unbelievable. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I mean, as you know, you know, playing college hockey in New England, it's a dream come true.

00:02:42:10 - 00:03:07:02
Speaker 1
And, you know, it was one of those times your life, you do what you could to get back and have another one of those. But really just, you know, the thing that kind of rounded out was we had a great team. You know, great leaders on that team. And a lot of folks that, you know, really bought into, you know, northeastern hockey and really changing the culture there and yeah, it was a lot of fun.

00:03:07:02 - 00:03:25:22
Speaker 1
And and, you know, the success is a lot of it has to do with the people around you. So, you know, Leon Hayward, Chris Lynch, I mean, you know, all these folks, you know, just great people. A lot of them are coaching or Chris is a pilot for Delta now and, you know, great lifelong friends. And it started with those experiences in college.

00:03:26:05 - 00:03:44:09
Speaker 1
You know, the success in that season, the fun we had in that season had to do with, you know, just like I said, change the culture. And, you know, I had a lot of have a lot of lifelong friends from that. When you share experiences and, you know, it's just it was a great experience and something, as, you know, going back to do it again would be amazing.

00:03:44:13 - 00:04:06:10
Speaker 1
But we have to grow up, unfortunately. So Jim Dale was telling me you won four state titles and that you were captain in college or not just you senior, like most people, but three years to talk a little bit about that that's kind of that doesn't happen I don't think at any level yeah you know you know so for me it wasn't an expectation.

00:04:06:10 - 00:04:28:04
Speaker 1
I ended up going to Northeastern because I was their first choice. And any time, you know, I was I was looking at being part schools. I talked to Harvard. BCB You really made choices to have somebody else be their first choice. And that was Brooke's drawback at the time, and that was Chris Diamond, great players and everything else.

00:04:28:04 - 00:04:54:18
Speaker 1
And, you know, this was really my opportunity to be that go to individual and kind of help change the culture there. And Bruce Crowder brought me in, Paul, Canada, Jamie Rice, great leaders at Mold Academy and Babson as well. And so I made that choice to go there. And it was a surprise to me, to be honest with you, as we kind of went from our freshman year to sophomore year to be asked to be an assistant captain sophomore year and a captain junior senior.

00:04:55:07 - 00:05:28:11
Speaker 1
And I really didn't think much about it other than just, you know, continuing to try to lead by example. And, you know, we had a great structure, though, like I said before, we just had some great people that were dedicated to building the program and dedicated to really winning hockey games. And so it was just kind of the right place, right time, I guess you could say, and just trying to do the right things so that is I mean, that's incredible as a sophomore to be given that leadership title, that's like really special.

00:05:28:11 - 00:05:46:23
Speaker 1
And obviously like you've taken that leadership on to the next level, get it a little bit later. One thing I always like to ask defensemen because there's like one reason and one reason only that I got to play college hockey and it was because my, my deep partner, my junior year was cute. And so I had like 24 points.

00:05:46:23 - 00:06:14:16
Speaker 1
I think I had 23/2 assists and one goal. Yeah. So I always love to know like who is your favorite deep partner that you had in your career? And I, I had a lot of them in college. I would say it's probably Joe Mancuso or Rich Spiller and the reason it was Joe, me and Bruce. And it's hard to compete with your experience with Keith Yandle.

00:06:14:18 - 00:06:38:06
Speaker 1
I mean, Keith grew up in the same town as I did obviously know his family. Great, great family, Brian. Very successful as well and are both awesome, awesome hockey players. But you know, I would have to probably say Joe would be my choice because Joe had a way of creating space out there. He was a walk on at Northeastern and, you know, just earned it every single day.

00:06:38:06 - 00:07:00:23
Speaker 1
And I played with him quite a bit. And, you know, the experience was awesome because he did his job and he expected me to do my job, did hold me accountable. And you know, he was just always there for you. He was reliable, steady, never got hurt, was there every time you needed him. So probably say Joe Mancuso in college.

00:07:00:23 - 00:07:22:02
Speaker 1
So, Jim, a lot of our listeners are student athletes and they're all trying to get to that level of playing professional in whatever league it is. But we talked a little bit about your student life at Northeastern and what your life did. I, I don't know what it's like in Northeastern, but, you know, some schools it's it's hockey first and second.

00:07:22:03 - 00:07:54:12
Speaker 1
So through talking, okay, that's not the case at Northeastern, I can tell you I can assure you that. And I'll go back to probably the memorial. You know, my father was in my mother were instrumental and basically put me in a situation where I didn't get one without the other. And so they were very, very clear. And if they were paying for school and giving me the ability to have the platform to learn and grow as an athlete and a student, that I wasn't going to be playing hockey if I wasn't on honor roll.

00:07:55:03 - 00:08:16:14
Speaker 1
And that was something they said really from the beginning. And so both my mom was a nurse work nights, my dad was a tile guy and work days. And so I learned work ethic from them. So that was really the thing is, you know, coming in from from come to Eastern, it was really instilled in me and like, you know, you got to get the grades first.

00:08:17:04 - 00:08:39:07
Speaker 1
If you don't do that, you know, you can't focus on the hockey side. And so that was a key for me. And Northeastern did a really nice job. I mean, in there you probably had something very similar, like we had to complete X amount of hours a week in study halls and it just, you know, it kind of got in front of the fact that, you know, you need your grades first.

00:08:39:07 - 00:09:04:17
Speaker 1
That's first and foremost. If you do that, you know, your time on the ice is dependent on, you know, how well you play, but without that foundation, you just won't play. So I took a lot of pride in making sure I invested the time in study hall and getting on a roll through college and really making sure that that wasn't in the way of ice time and other things.

00:09:04:17 - 00:09:30:12
Speaker 1
And like, I couldn't agree more. Jim Like the habits that I developed, like, listen, I think comes probably very similar. It's like forced habits. Like you have to, you have to get your stuff done in school, like Cushing. Cushing was a little different situation because we live there, but they forced us to be at our desk every night, Monday through Thursday or Sunday through Thursday, 8 to 10.

00:09:31:00 - 00:09:55:03
Speaker 1
So like I developed that habit as a 15 to 19 year old and like even now, like I find myself usually working from 8 to 10. It is like a natural instinct. So it's definitely makes, it makes a huge difference. And it's followed me in my, my regular career as well. Unfortunately, like John and I never got to play professional sports, we both stopped at the college level.

00:09:55:12 - 00:10:15:13
Speaker 1
I'm super curious, like coming from college into the pro level, especially at the level you were at, like what were some of the habits that you developed to become like, you know, we'll talk about this later about being a professional salesperson, but being a pro, right? Like what were what were those things that that were different in college and some of the things that were the same?

00:10:16:01 - 00:10:40:09
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think, you know, as you kind of progressed, what I learned really, really quickly, whether it was the hard way or just identifying, you know, maybe some of the gaps that teams needed was your skill sets have to change. And, you know, this year every job you have, your skill sets have to change. You can't solely rely on what you learned in the past and and and hope that that gets you to where you want to be in the future.

00:10:41:01 - 00:11:14:22
Speaker 1
And so coming out of college, you said I was on the ice a lot, played an offensive role from the back end and then getting to San Jose as an eighth round draft pick and looking at a lineup that had Mike Rafferty, Brad Stewart, Scott Hannon, you know, a bunch of Brian Marchant obviously just passed. So they didn't really need somebody that was, you know, hanging on to the puck for too long or trying to do too much on the front end.

00:11:16:01 - 00:11:44:01
Speaker 1
What they needed was, you know, somebody that could fill a role and just be reliable. And so one of the things that I learned early on is just identify the gaps. Like what is it that in your new role that needs to be changed from maybe a weakness or an opportunity to a strength? And when you identify those things, really that's, you know, those are the things that you need to focus on, the things that become priorities and working on your game in that way.

00:11:44:01 - 00:12:06:23
Speaker 1
So for me, that was that was critical. I was fortunate enough at San Jose and unfortunately for Brad Stewart, if you remember back in 2002, he got a concussion. San Jose was picked to win the Stanley Cup and Brad got a concussion. And that really gave me the opportunity to make an impact on the power play. But I had to earn that.

00:12:06:23 - 00:12:27:15
Speaker 1
With Darrell Sutter being your coach, you are just going to kind of walk in and get on the power play. That wasn't how it worked. And so they they made some trades, brought in a couple people. And what I identified as the gap is like, you know, you need to make an impact. So I started to meet with Chris Niland and learn how to fight a little bit and then do some of those things.

00:12:28:04 - 00:12:52:19
Speaker 1
And so and not that I was going to, you know, at six foot and a half and £210 make a huge impact. But just the willingness to fill those gaps and the willingness to play any role to make the team was something that I learned early on. And any job is you identify why you're there and then focus on those priorities to make the team stronger.

00:12:52:19 - 00:13:27:06
Speaker 1
So you mentioned, Jim, a lot of legendary names right there and mentorship is is big. And this in this podcast, it comes up a lot, whether it's in sales or hockey or athletics. Could you talk a little bit about some some of the mentorship aspects of your early days? And yeah, you know, looking back, John, it's interesting. Like and you know, J.R., like we saw this when we started to work together when I was at EMC and you know, and I see I there's a lot of great people that have done the work and laid the foundation for us to be able to be successful.

00:13:27:20 - 00:13:51:23
Speaker 1
And as I look back, I think of people like Jimmy Shepard, who like even when I messed something up for a customer and EMC, Jamie was one of those people saying, don't worry about I will fix it. And there are other people as I go back to your question around hockey, that as I reflect on it, I think one of the people that made the biggest impact on my career was Brian Marchant.

00:13:52:00 - 00:14:13:09
Speaker 1
And obviously I said like, you know, he just recently passed and 53 was awful. Marshall was one of those people that really took me under his wing and showed me that, you know, mistakes are going to happen, right? Like you just what do you do next? Like you just don't make the same mistake twice. If you're going to do something, do it as hard and as fast.

00:14:13:09 - 00:14:36:11
Speaker 1
And with all your energy they have him. You know, another name I would say is Adam Graves. And Gravy would take us on dinner, on road trips. And, you know, obviously, I grew up in finally had a few dollars in my wallet and I wanted to pay for the meal. I've never seen an individual more upset with me trying to pay for another young player, trying to pay for a meal.

00:14:36:16 - 00:15:09:11
Speaker 1
It just was not going to happen. And that was his way of saying like, hey, listen, I earned this and you need to understand like that there's a pecking order here. So I would say. Adam Graves. Brian Marchant I ended up living with Kyle MacLaren for quite some time on the road. He was another one that really kind of took me under his wing and showed me what a young player in the NHL was and in how to kind of, you know, go about your business and do your job and, you know, not be too loud, don't don't attract too much attention.

00:15:10:01 - 00:15:36:02
Speaker 1
But there are a lot I mean, Joe Saw and Scott Hannon used to let me live in his house in San Jose. Joe Dorton was another one that we were the same age. I think I was actually three months older than him. And speaking of John, his beard is probably the only one that rivals yours right now. But yeah, you know, just another, like, great person that, like, we had a lot in common.

00:15:36:02 - 00:16:01:20
Speaker 1
You know, he obviously started in Boston and we we knew a lot of the same people. And so, you know, I just he was another individual that kind of, you know, took me under his wing and just kind of gave me the space that I needed to be part of something special. And I think that's that's probably the the mentors I would look, I mean, I can't stress enough that, you know, there's a there's a ton of people.

00:16:02:03 - 00:16:27:02
Speaker 1
Danny McGillis I could keep going on, on individuals that have had impacts, but like the chiefs huge. It's it's so crazy to me how the lessons you learned in college in your pro career and the same thing for me like how they translate into the working world, right? Like talking about like finding your role, you know, getting over getting over mistakes, right?

00:16:27:02 - 00:16:56:23
Speaker 1
Like, you know, like Ted lasso vehicle. That's right. And even like, even like senior guys stepping up and, like, paying for dinner, like, it seems like a little thing, but like, you end up doing that when you get older, right? Like, I remember Chef didn't let me pay for anything like my first three years at Eisai. And then when I got over to turbo into leadership, you know, when I, when when I went out with younger sellers, it was always like I was picking up the tab every time and I know they appreciated that.

00:16:56:23 - 00:17:19:01
Speaker 1
So like those are things that showed up in your, in your working life, which is that's probably a good time to transition. So that's when, Jim, you were not in that. I think I'm pretty sure I was in Franklin the day you interviewed with Jimmy Mack. And I remember hearing like, oh, Jimmy Page, he's here. And I honestly, I know who you were growing up in Boston playing hockey.

00:17:19:01 - 00:17:41:18
Speaker 1
And I was like, That's so that's so bad ass. But like, you stepped into an essay role, a sales associate, all right? Like you went from, you know, jets and flying all over Europe to cold calling. How jargon was that lifestyle change for you? We have a lot of kids going through that right now. And and I'm just super curious to hear what it was like from your perspective.

00:17:42:15 - 00:18:03:12
Speaker 1
How much time do you have? Yeah, it was it was it was quite an experience. And, you know, we at the same time, you have your home life, right? So we were having our our second child and, you know, starting a new career and, you know, that career involved, you know, over 100 miles a day and 55 constitution at EMC.

00:18:04:09 - 00:18:21:22
Speaker 1
But really, I think, you know, it was a blessing to have that opportunity. The people that opened the doors for you to, you know, be able I was actually I signed a two year deal to go back to Nuremberg and play. And I had met with Billy Scannell and he basically opened the door for me to have the opportunity to earn a job there.

00:18:22:09 - 00:18:39:13
Speaker 1
And that's why I went to see Jimmy Mack, because I was like, if I'm going to I'm going to close the doors on hockey. I need to make sure like that I know who I'm working for and what I need to do. And I had done a lot of investigation on sales and you know, that goal orientated like, you know, continuing to hit your mark.

00:18:39:13 - 00:19:17:11
Speaker 1
So you mentioned J.R., you know, learning to fall down, fail fast, make those corrections, iterate, learn and grow. And so when I met with Jimmy Mack, I just wanted to make sure that this was the right team for me, the right spot for me. And I actually I had made a call two days earlier to Doug Wilson, who was the assistant GM to Dean Lombardi in San Jose, just to make sure that the doors in the NHL had closed because there was no looking back when I called in the 55 Constitution in my my three year old Infiniti, because we needed to buy a second car and so, yeah, pulling up there was was an

00:19:17:11 - 00:19:47:00
Speaker 1
experience. I mean, you're there with a ton of super sharp, young, you know, go getters that have kind of spent the last 4 to 5 years in school just thinking about their sales career and learning and really investing the time. And so I was a bit of a an anomaly, if you will, you know, coming in and there's this 30 year old guy that's, you know, you know, having to get back in the classroom and learn to learn all over again in a new way.

00:19:48:07 - 00:20:09:11
Speaker 1
But, you know, again, I met some great people and, you know, they learned a lot from me and I learned a ton from them. And it was all about competing. So I just focused on the task at hand, more so than, you know, the surroundings and being kind of a know. Yeah, yeah. And is there's like no one better to start your career on there than Jimmy Mack.

00:20:09:11 - 00:20:32:22
Speaker 1
That's I mean candidly, Jimmy, I don't know if you noticed it, but the name of the podcast is Merchants of Change, which is a Jimmy Mack. Yes. To Mack euphemism. Right. Like that's that's why we named it that. That's so unreal. Was so like, you know, Billy, what were you like thinking sales from the get or was it like a meeting with Billy that was like that's why I want to do sales.

00:20:32:22 - 00:21:01:19
Speaker 1
Like, why? Why did you choose sales out of everything you could have done? Yeah. So I ended up exploring a couple different opportunities. So Jimmy Madigan, who at the time was, you know, working at Northeastern, became pretty friendly with him. He became friendly with my family and I really leaned on him because he had a lot of experience in business, but also in professional hockey, right, as a professional scout and then the dean of endowment at Northeastern and, you know, head coach, athletic director.

00:21:01:19 - 00:21:24:00
Speaker 1
And so I looked at coaching and to be honest with you, like after spending eight plus years in hockey, I don't I didn't really feel the passion to get back into coaching. And, you know, that's changed. I coach my kids now, but the passion wasn't there and I needed to be able to get back to earning in a quick way and going to try to be a doctor.

00:21:24:00 - 00:21:45:02
Speaker 1
A lawyer was out of the question and so Jimmy Madigan kind of set me up with executives that he knew through his Northeastern connections at IBM and EMC. And I went down to visit with Billy Scanlon and had a meeting with him. And the the interview went from 30 minutes to two and a half hours, and he pushed back a flight that he was taking to San Fran.

00:21:45:02 - 00:22:08:10
Speaker 1
And I was like, whoa, like, talk about a commitment. We had a lot in common. His dad, my grandfather worked in the same place that is in back in the day. And really just like he gave me the opportunity. So, you know, what I realize is like the same type of people we talked about in hockey, like those that sacrifice, those that do the simple things, they're the same leaders that are in sales, right?

00:22:08:10 - 00:22:29:18
Speaker 1
They value teamwork. They value execution, they value hard work, they value coaching and curiosity. And so that it just it was almost decided for me where I could build a career in this if I just do the same things, learn again, invest the time, make the right sacrifices, and it just was the right fit because, you know, it's very similar.

00:22:29:19 - 00:23:04:17
Speaker 1
That's why I think what you guys are doing is awesome. Are out or g job around you know shift is there's such a need for those driven people that know how to succeed and fail fast in in the world of, you know, tech sales and sales in general. Do you talk to want to take on that a little bit because a ton of our listeners and tutors that shift are coaching like you know, a lot of former athletes, they get into either coaching or working at city centers or gyms and they try to keep the athletic dream alive, if you will.

00:23:04:17 - 00:23:36:05
Speaker 1
And do you talk a little bit about the difference between, you know, I'm sure coaching is is very lucrative, but the opportunity to earn and sales that's what a lot of athletes are wondering about then. So one of those sales tactics was to grab this. It was probably like four inches thick and it was, you know, computer paper spreadsheet type of, you know, Excel spreadsheet that had every single sales rep at EMC at the time and their earnings.

00:23:37:05 - 00:23:51:05
Speaker 1
And he plopped it on the table in front of me. And he said to me, he's like, I'm not saying you're going to be in the front page of this book or the back page of this book. But as far as a career and you being able to provide for your family and you being able to provide for others, create opportunity.

00:23:51:06 - 00:24:14:09
Speaker 1
A big Bill Russell fan, do you if you look at Bill Russell, he never talked about how he played. He always talked about how his play made the team better or like how other people kind of made him better and, you know, for me, that book that I'll never forget, that drop on the table, it was heavy as heck and and kind of gone through it and just kind of understanding, like, man, it's up to you what you make of it.

00:24:15:03 - 00:24:35:09
Speaker 1
Whether you're the last page of the first page, it's the same thing as being in athletics. You want to stop playing as a mighty might, or do you want to stop playing as a as somebody that makes the highest levels in the world? And so, you know, the the opportunity to earn a lot is there and is all dependent on the effort you put in.

00:24:36:02 - 00:25:11:08
Speaker 1
And you know, where you're willing to put yourself out there to, to learn and grow. What what advice would you give to the candidates we're working with that are making that transition you made back in that like at last phone call to San Jose and the drive down 495 to Constitution Boulevard. What if you could go back? What's one thing that you would say, hey, make sure you think of this or take this perspective or or develop this, have it like, what's your biggest piece of guidance for those folks that are going through the same transition you went through years ago?

00:25:11:08 - 00:25:33:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean, I think like putting yourself out there and you know, as you alluded to before, like the people you meet along the way, the mentors, you had an athletics like they want to help you. Like I want to help people that you're bringing in, J.R. Like I want to see these people be successful. And that's just innately like that's that's a human characteristic for good people like to have.

00:25:33:12 - 00:25:55:19
Speaker 1
So don't be afraid to put yourself out there. The other thing I would say is like, change can be scary for people and it comes at different levels. Go go at it as fast as possible. Like, I mean, I remember in inside sales like it was a woman that sat next to me and she got off a call and she was super smart.

00:25:56:06 - 00:26:16:15
Speaker 1
She got off a cold call and she was crying because somebody yelled at. And so I was just like, you know what? Like, why not call this person back? Let's just call them back and make sure like they leave. With EMC being like obviously we got them at a bad time, whatever. And so like that was, I mean, I was scared inside, but I was like, you know, we're going to let this fly and see what happens.

00:26:16:15 - 00:26:41:11
Speaker 1
So I would just say, you know, charge at change fast, like try different things, fail fast, invest the time to learn. Like don't jump ship, you know? And that's why I think, you know, your shift is such an awesome opportunity. Like get in, learn from others, build that kind of, you know, camaraderie around you people at the same experiences.

00:26:41:11 - 00:27:08:13
Speaker 1
But it changed fast 100%. Well said. That was awesome. You gym like I was there, right? You went from that essay role to a quota carrying role pretty quickly. I think partially it was the timing of EMC doing that segmentation right with the inside sales. But I think a lot of it, like we we deal with a lot of kids that are more mature.

00:27:08:13 - 00:27:26:06
Speaker 1
They've done another job, they've been a teacher, they sold insurance, they did other things. But every kid, even the kids that come right out of school, they all want to get to a closing role as fast as possible. What do you think? It's kind of two questions. What's the best way to get off to a fast start beyond what you just talked about?

00:27:26:06 - 00:27:49:13
Speaker 1
Because I think that's a huge piece of it. And then like, what are the areas of development for this? Like you're now in sales leadership, you've hired a ton of salespeople. Like what are the areas of development that new salespeople need to lean into? So it's kind of a two part question. Best way to get to a closing role and the areas of development you should most focus on when you when you first start in sales.

00:27:49:13 - 00:28:09:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I think I think for me, the best way to get into a closing role and kind of, you know, elevate your career is like I always talk about sacrifice and so you're going to get the curriculum. If you start in the right places or you work with a group like yourself, you're going to you're going to understand that.

00:28:09:23 - 00:28:34:06
Speaker 1
But it's what you do in the doors close and nobody's looking right. Invest the time to learn, you know, in and, you know, read about like, you know, the characteristics, trade skills that you need to do the job appropriately. And it's not just the job you're doing, it's the job you want. So don't stop setting those goals, set those goals and keep the timelines tight.

00:28:34:13 - 00:28:59:13
Speaker 1
I always look at things 0 to 6 months, 6 to 12, 12 to 18 and then beyond, and put something quantifiable around those goals. So there's a time frame you want to get to the point next and then understand what the pay is. Do you go from 50 to 100? Do you go from 75 to 100 and then keep yourself like on those tracks to say like, these are the goals I want to get to when I want to be earning.

00:28:59:13 - 00:29:46:12
Speaker 1
So I think if you continue to do that behavior around setting goals and attaining them is the fastest way to get there. As far as like the second part of that question, J.R., like, you know, I talk about sacrifice. I think like I mean, the focus, you can't do everything. And so just making sure that like, you know, when you get there, you're focused on the the things that you can be great at, meaning, like, you know, if it's presentation skills, if it's qualification discovery frameworks leading with empathy, you know, really just kind of focus on those learnings and you know, I mean, for me, again, I always go back to like when I think

00:29:46:12 - 00:30:09:20
Speaker 1
about the past and reflect, you know, people that made an impact. I mean, Trevor, Bob Buick, as you know, and I spoke to him this morning, you know, again, it was somebody that like, he went through this learning process in a different way at a different time. I picked his brain daily. I mean, I would go buy him a beer and we'd sit there and talk about the things that he did to be successful at that next job.

00:30:10:05 - 00:30:29:14
Speaker 1
So always thinking ahead, it's kind of a curse at the same time because you can't really enjoy what you're doing as much as you would be able to. But it's it's how you get through it the fastest and be successful at those different that's that's really solid. Jim And do you talk a little bit about your leadership roles?

00:30:31:07 - 00:30:53:00
Speaker 1
You're in mode right now. We talk about what you what you have the biggest impact on in your organization and what you think you're striving for each time. It's just me. I'm a big believer in leading by example. I tell people all the time like, I'm going to make more mistakes than you. Well, that gives you the right to fail fast.

00:30:53:00 - 00:31:22:21
Speaker 1
And like, I won't make the same mistake twice. And then I think the simplification is important. This is not rocket science. You know, like people buy from people and they have to be they have to know their brief. They have to be approachable. They have to listen. They have to have a work ethic. So they're trustworthy. But really, like just prioritizing those simple things and then filling in the gaps with like, you know, just that learning.

00:31:22:21 - 00:32:00:23
Speaker 1
I mean, for me, I've followed the people that have helped me along the way. And so I'm just trying to emulate what I've learned from those leaders. And and I think simplification, especially in SAS, like everybody thinks you need to be everything to everybody. But actually if you just narrow your focus to the places that you can make an impact with the personas that you can impact, you know, you get a lot of value out of the relationship and a lot of what you mean to the organization and the outcomes you can drive with whatever you so that's I mean, keep it simple, stupid, right?

00:32:00:23 - 00:32:26:18
Speaker 1
Like same thing that my dad said to me before. I mean, my mother literally did. It works like if you can do that, have focus and execute against what you know you're really good at, it's a game changer. I remember Jim going from being a leader of a team to being a leader of leaders and hiring new leaders was something that I made a lot of.

00:32:26:19 - 00:32:48:15
Speaker 1
Like to your point about making mistakes, like your tendency as a when you're first hiring leaders to lead teams that are underneath you, at least for me, was I'm going to look for the best individual contributor and I'm going to make them a manager. And it was a huge it was a huge mistake. And I think we both you know, both me and the manager were like, hey, maybe this wasn't the right move.

00:32:48:15 - 00:33:10:03
Speaker 1
Like, we're going to look at it differently. Can you talk a little bit now that you're in like a you know, and you've been in more of a leader of leaders type of role, what do you look for when you are trying to identify like people that are individual contributors that you want to make leaders like what are the things that you look for in those new leaders of people?

00:33:10:15 - 00:33:42:07
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, we've all made those mistakes. I made them multiple times. You know, I think for me, I look for a couple different things. I want to see people that are passionate about success, you know, passion. Passion can kind of hide a lot of different, you know, challenges along the way. And I want I want somebody that's going to bring the same approach to other people's success.

00:33:42:17 - 00:34:10:11
Speaker 1
And they have to have a passion and it has to be around coaching. We don't need people that can read spreadsheets. I need people that want people to get better, can identify gaps and can can coach those individuals to be better. I think the other thing for me that's really important is like curiosity. You know, people that want to get to that next level and show people how to do it like, you know, it's not the first level question getting in the answer.

00:34:10:11 - 00:34:31:08
Speaker 1
It's like, all right, now unpack that for me. Like to dig deeper into that. Like that level of curiosity just shows me that they'll invest the time with customers and with the people that they're coaching, the people that they're leading. And, you know, in this world, things are changing so quickly so that, you know, curiosity is just keeps them ahead of the curve in my mind.

00:34:32:02 - 00:34:54:21
Speaker 1
And then I think the other thing and I alluded to it before is, is teamwork. Like, I want to understand, you know, what they feel their their role is if they think their role as a leader is to orchestrate, you go this way or that way, not for not for our organization. Like what impact can you make on this team and how are you going to make this team better?

00:34:54:21 - 00:35:15:06
Speaker 1
Like a force multiplier, you know, those are some of the things. The other things like, you know, people that are self-starters, right? How have you talk about an obstacle you had your life. What did you do to change your approach? And then what is something that you've done difficult that you started on your own? And I'm looking there for impact.

00:35:15:11 - 00:35:38:21
Speaker 1
I'm looking for impact in those description. I always I always used to say to my new leaders, I need, you know, because you come in, especially when when Turbo is really a rocket ship. We were moving a lot of like 24 or 25 year old kids into management roles. And they think to your point, they think their job is to make to tell people what to do.

00:35:39:06 - 00:36:06:11
Speaker 1
And the thing I always used to say to them is like, listen, you now work for your seven sales reps, your job. You have one job and one job only, and it's to make them successful. Their job is not to make you successful. Your job is to make them successful. And if you come with that mindset into a leadership role, I think you're going to manage people differently, you're going to talk to them differently, and you're just going to think about how you fit into the team in a different way.

00:36:06:11 - 00:36:27:06
Speaker 1
And I think those people that pick that up quickly are wildly successful, and people want to work for them no matter where they go. They, you know, and it's it really just it builds a culture and, you know, you never worry about those individuals when you close the door behind you because you always know that like the that they're, you know, kind of bringing the right culture.

00:36:27:06 - 00:36:53:09
Speaker 1
They're bring the right character to the situation. Percent, hundred percent. That's awesome. So I think we're getting to here now to the last two questions. Every every seller and I know like my answer to this has one skill that they've developed that really makes them a leader. Obviously, Jim, getting to the leadership level, you've got to you are a great seller as well.

00:36:53:09 - 00:37:19:07
Speaker 1
What was like your number one skill that made you kind of lead seller? It's a great it's a great question. You know, for me, and this is going to kind of be a cop out to some extent, I'd have to say time management. I think you can always look at like, you know, pure skills negotiation, presentation, you know, all of that.

00:37:21:03 - 00:37:43:14
Speaker 1
But for me, I think back to the keep it simple, stupid, you need to be able to say no to things and you need to prioritize the the critical right. You know, not not everything needs to get done today. And I think, you know, making those sacrifices in it can be a curse, right? Like having a young family starting a new career and trying to do it as fast as possible.

00:37:43:14 - 00:38:11:13
Speaker 1
And, you know, this job, like, you have to sacrifice things. You have to have a great partner with you to say like, man, I'm going to do this and be very clear on your targets and I need help. I need you to help me here. And so having that at time management and really prioritizing the things that are important to you to get to those levels to provide for your family, I think for me, is is probably the thing that's made the most impact.

00:38:11:13 - 00:38:37:17
Speaker 1
It's it's so true that as a sales person, the only resource you don't you can't create more of is time. And young sellers are are have a major tendency to waste their time in opportunities with people on accounts that they're never going to buy. Right. And like, I think it takes it takes some unfortunately, it takes some scars to like, really learned your lesson there.

00:38:38:02 - 00:38:57:01
Speaker 1
And you know what? I'm going to move on from this. I'm not going to talk about this deal in every single TBR for the next two years, which, you know, sometimes I would let Reps continue to talk about deals, would never talk about those deals to my leaders because I knew they were never going to close and I just needed the rep themselves.

00:38:57:01 - 00:39:14:11
Speaker 1
And you know, there's been many vacations where you're sitting in a room trying to close a deal at the end of the quarter. And, you know, when you reflect in kind of think about that deal, you're like, man, if I just asked the executive buyer two weeks before if it was possible to do this, and I mean, in many ways not.

00:39:14:14 - 00:39:37:13
Speaker 1
Hey, my expectation is this gets done this month. No, like I am setting expectations that we're doing this partnership this month. Like, are you we aligned in that and it's just having that that courage to do that earlier. And then, you know what it gives you the time to go invest in something else, right? And that can be your career, your family, learning and growing, all of those things.

00:39:37:13 - 00:39:53:01
Speaker 1
And I think it's it's critical for people to have the courage to say no and say, you know what? Like, I buy the book qualification metric, all this stuff. This is not going to come in. And you have to be honest with yourself. Yeah.

00:39:55:04 - 00:40:18:07
Speaker 1
You took the words out of my mouth. Courage. I was going to say confidence. It takes a little bit of courage to be like, hey, I don't have time for this. And owning it and learning about. Yeah, anybody else but your time is you don't get it. Absolutely. So give me a love, this one. So my dad used to say to us when we were little, you know, hey, a lot of a lot of kids play hockey, but there's not a lot of hockey players.

00:40:18:13 - 00:40:45:23
Speaker 1
Right. And, you know, he was kind of in batting in early, basically being a pro, like taking everything, approaching everything in a way where you're not just playing hockey, you're a hockey player, you're prepared, you know, you're getting ready, you're practicing, you understand the competition, all those things. And we think that the highest the highest praise you can give a salesperson is calling them a throw like this.

00:40:46:08 - 00:41:04:09
Speaker 1
This guy, this girl is a pro for you. What are the things that that you meet a sales rep or you have a sales rep that works for you? What makes them a sales professional? What makes them a pro? Yeah, I think the first thing is they, you know, they know their brief as Billy Scanlon used to say.

00:41:05:05 - 00:41:21:22
Speaker 1
They know what they're talking about. They they are dedicated to to become an expert in that field. The subject matter expert, whatever you want to call them. But they know what they're doing, right? They play at the top of the game no matter what the sport is, the the instrument they play or the, you know, the job they have.

00:41:23:06 - 00:41:54:02
Speaker 1
I think the second thing is, and I go back to it is just leading by example. You know, you can just see behind every professional or somebody that I would call a professional, they lead by example. There's a group of people behind them that is learning from that individual right, that next level of leadership, the next level of an individual contributor, you know, they're the ones that are wanting to go to dinner with the Adam Graves or Brian Marchant to the world, and they're learning from those individuals.

00:41:54:02 - 00:42:16:09
Speaker 1
So the influence is there. They're making a big influence. So I think they play at the top of the game. They lead by example and you can see the force multiplier in the influence they have in an organization that to me is a pro. It's so true because it doesn't even they don't even have to have captain or manager or director title.

00:42:16:09 - 00:42:37:10
Speaker 1
It's like some of my best leaders were sales reps that just did the right thing. They got very positive outcomes all of that time. That was commission checks and everybody else saw them and said, You know what, I'm going to do what she's doing. She's she's killing it. You know, she's coming in with different every week. Like, that's who I want to hire.

00:42:37:18 - 00:42:56:21
Speaker 1
That's who I want to mirror. So I love that. That's a really good way to describe it. It's the first time we've heard that one. Jim Unreal conversation. So many great nuggets in here. I know our guys and girls are going to really appreciate listening to this and I'm going to for this one, one that I'm going to, of course, as part of our training.

00:42:56:21 - 00:43:16:18
Speaker 1
So thank you so much. I think this is great. I mean, I think what you're doing with Shift Gears is awesome. I mean, there's such a need out there. I'm on both sides of it now. I know you know, Amaro introduced introduce you to the head of recruitment. There's just such a big impact that these folks can have in a tight timeframe.

00:43:17:06 - 00:43:38:16
Speaker 1
And I think it's a great career. You know, it, you know, John is the same and I just think there's such a need for this in, you know, SAS and in technology and all of sales. And so I think, yeah, if I can be of help in any way, let me know how I can can help. Thank you, buddy.

00:43:38:16 - 00:44:07:08
Speaker 1
Thank you. I appreciate you. Take care. Thanks. This wraps up this episode of Making Some Change. If you enjoyed this episode, the most meaningful way to say thanks is to submit a review wherever you listen to podcasts. If you're interested in working with us, please come find us at WW Dot Shepherd Dot I.