Merchants of Change

00;00;00;21 - 00;00;27;18
Speaker 1
This week on Merchants of Change, we talk with one of Cape Cod's finest. Brian Cole. Brian played hockey at the College of the Holy Cross before a quick cup of coffee in the Federal League. Brian is a good friend and a seasoned sales pro who currently is selling software for Tide Lift. Tide Lift helps organizations effectively manage the open source behind modern applications.

00;00;27;18 - 00;00;30;02
Speaker 1
Here he is, Brian Kolb.

00;00;35;01 - 00;00;39;28
Speaker 1
I'm J.R. Butler, co-founder of the Chef Group. And you're listening to Merchants of Change.

00;00;42;00 - 00;00;59;21
Speaker 1
This is a podcast about transferring the skills and behaviors we acquire as athletes into being a professional technology salesperson. Each week, we'll introduce you to a top performer who will help us understand how they became professional merchants of change.

00;01;03;23 - 00;01;05;10
Speaker 1
What's up, Ken? How are we.

00;01;05;10 - 00;01;11;28
Speaker 2
Doing? Brian called Providence and I see was a gentleman today.

00;01;12;26 - 00;01;26;23
Speaker 1
This is awesome. This is awesome. We were just talking before we recorded John and Mike. Probably 98% of the stories that me and Brian have together aren't going to make this this episode. So we're going to keep it PG 13. All right.

00;01;28;18 - 00;01;29;14
Speaker 2
That's a little early.

00;01;30;10 - 00;01;52;20
Speaker 1
So. So, Brian, thank you so much for joining. It's weird to call you Brian. I'm not I'm sure you've had a chance to listen to a few of the episodes. Right where we're talking we're talking to the audience we're talking to is really like athletes transitioning into sales or considering transitioning into sales. And most of the people we've talked to are all former athletes.

00;01;52;20 - 00;02;04;08
Speaker 1
And we like to start start in the sports the sports background. So you're a Cape Cod kid. Tell us a little bit about your experience growing up playing sports.

00;02;05;26 - 00;02;34;15
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for having me on. I think it's, you know, growing up, one sport, two sports, three sports. I live in a large neighborhood where everyone was playing everything, you know. So for baseball, soccer, football, lacrosse, I pretty much did it all up until high school. And so then we had to kind of narrow it down and it ended up being soccer, hockey, lacrosse, and then eventually hockey in college.

00;02;34;15 - 00;02;51;22
Speaker 2
But along the way, you get to meet a lot of good people, a lot of good friends, a lot of relationships built over those times. And I don't know, I kind of like playing more than one sport, more than just specialize in one, right? By the time you get sick of one season are sick of some people. You're on to a new team, a new friends, a new experience.

00;02;51;24 - 00;03;17;04
Speaker 2
So it definitely shaped me who I was growing up, maybe better than I was a translated well to the to the work world. What are some of your favorite memories from playing all those sports growing up? Yeah, I think I think the first time traveling with a team like staying overnight in a hotel right at the knee, hockey in the hallways, all night with the dads or elbows.

00;03;17;04 - 00;03;35;09
Speaker 2
Unreal. And then, you know, getting ready to get back in and jumping the ball as soon as you're back, you know, staying up all night, playing video games. There was a lot of fun. And then now as you get older, I think in high school I think J.R was on the receiving end of one of the better experiences for me.

00;03;35;09 - 00;03;55;12
Speaker 2
Taber We were we were kind of an underdog type scenario playing Cushing, but we ended up on that off make it to the finals. Unfortunately lost to Jonathan Quick in the Avon Old Fireman's. But that was my first real glimpse of playing when I knew half that team was probably going to be either in the NHL or NHL at some point.

00;03;55;12 - 00;04;01;20
Speaker 2
But that was the first time where I think I realized that maybe I could keep up and play with the big boys.

00;04;02;19 - 00;04;13;13
Speaker 1
Yeah, I was super excited when I got to Holy Cross and found out there was a kid from Taber on the team. Mike Just really, really excited to have that conversation.

00;04;13;13 - 00;04;18;04
Speaker 2
Do you remember when we first met your and you were playing baseball table?

00;04;18;04 - 00;04;39;09
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's right. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And I love your comment about multiple sports, dude. There's there's so much specialization. Now I get to follow you and your in your in your boys on Instagram and seeing how like how multifaceted their their athletic careers are becoming. I can see that that's that's going down a generation. I think that's unreal.

00;04;41;04 - 00;04;55;05
Speaker 2
Yeah. I appreciate it. Yeah, it's fun. It's it. See a lot of yourself in your kids, the good and the bad. But luckily my all my oldest is very competitive in the sports and right now we're just a lot of basketball and football, which is great. Yep.

00;04;55;16 - 00;05;05;17
Speaker 1
Yep. So keeping it in the guardrails. Cobra So favorite memory from Holy Cross days.

00;05;05;17 - 00;05;33;00
Speaker 2
I mean, I mean on the ice. It's obviously the Minnesota thing, right? When we upset Minnesota, that was I think for a lot of us, we kind of knew it was our pinnacle or peak. But I think off the ice it had to be freshman year, I think when we all thought we were going to end up doing that, run like the the campus, run it with CrossFit and Sully and McKay and all of a sudden we're all we're all mad and bitching that I think it was Sully wasn't there and he was skipping out.

00;05;33;00 - 00;05;49;23
Speaker 2
And as we start running, he comes out in a Speedo and rollerblades or roller skates. The pictures of beer. Let's go, boys. And we had a solid day and it was collapse 330 that day. So that was that was definitely like the first. I was like, Holy shit, welcome to college. Like, that was a blast.

00;05;50;02 - 00;05;54;19
Speaker 1
It was an unreal day.

00;05;54;19 - 00;06;17;21
Speaker 2
You know, I, I used to be jealous of you guys on the hockey team, you know, like, I'm over here at the football team and I don't know, we didn't we didn't even come close to what you guys had. And then the Minnesota win. Like, it's just it's pretty incredible. But I feel like as J.R mentioned, you guys talk about multiple sports and Holy Cross in our day.

00;06;17;22 - 00;06;37;17
Speaker 2
I think we had a great relationship with every sports team. You know, like I thought that was a little bit unique for us. Usually a lacrosse team doesn't like the hockey team or the football team, but I don't know. I feel like with us it was always kind of we're all hanging on. And Carol Cambridge Yeah, except for a couple of the better, which are the baseball guys that have a different opinion about me.

00;06;37;17 - 00;06;44;29
Speaker 2
But that was. That's right.

00;06;44;29 - 00;06;51;06
Speaker 1
Other than me obviously who who is a couple of your favorite your favorite teammates?

00;06;51;06 - 00;06;54;09
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think I mean honestly I'm best friends of Betty Conway.

00;06;54;09 - 00;06;54;22
Speaker 1
Chatter.

00;06;55;04 - 00;07;36;03
Speaker 2
And we had chat have been had been since day one I think he's really the one that kind of taught me the how it works to be an athlete there and what's expected out of you and showed me some of the shortcuts that you know coach Carroll probably so notice that I picked up on pretty quickly there but in the leadership there, I think McGregor and Vernon Pierre were the first real solid captains I think I had playing sports where what they said and what they did, one was more vocal than the other, but they were definitely great leaders and they obviously what we accomplished as a team that year was incredible.

00;07;36;03 - 00;07;56;17
Speaker 2
But it was in our class to hard, you know, there was a lot of us. So I think the relationships kind of evolved over time. I'm a little bit closer to some of the older guys in the team still now where I know my class is pretty close to, our class is pretty close and I think that just happens for you know, I obviously didn't play senior year for some personal reasons.

00;07;56;17 - 00;08;21;18
Speaker 2
I lost a few of my friends during the spring. And that's difficult. And I still I still think about it today. But then again, like, even though I don't hang out those guys all the time or we're not talking since the base is what I need them, they're there. You know, perfect example is when I'm you know, maybe five or six years ago, my father had a pretty serious brain injury and he was going in for brain surgery.

00;08;21;18 - 00;08;38;29
Speaker 2
And it just really Chalcedon is knew that the surgeon pretty well and we were having a hard time talking with the doctor and we went straight from our golf tournament there, straight to the hospital, got the introduction done, and it was just a big deal at the time. It just shows how close these guys are to one another.

00;08;39;03 - 00;08;56;15
Speaker 1
Yeah, once a teammate, always a teammate. I think it's it's it's wild. Especially when you go through the shared experience that we all had because that was such a special, such a special experience. Like I just think so fondly of those days and I think, you know, it had a lot of characteristics of like any winning team, right?

00;08;56;17 - 00;09;19;13
Speaker 1
Like we were all so close, we spent so much time together. We knew so much about each other, probably too much, and it was just unreal. So I'd love to get into again, we've really never talked about this, so I'm really excited to talk about the transition. I think like I would love to know how did you end up in sales?

00;09;21;02 - 00;09;45;01
Speaker 2
Yeah, so great question. I think at Holy Cross right, we didn't really have a business major per say, right. So, you know, there's economics that really was a business. And so I was a psychology major and it naturally led to competitiveness and sort of the learning about how people do things, the way they do things or sales is kind of a natural transition.

00;09;45;01 - 00;10;00;26
Speaker 2
Based on my personality, I was pretty it was pretty clear that a lot of our teammates were going to go into medical device sales. I don't I don't think that was great for me at the time for say so I went into the financial world like everyone else. Right. So I worked for Merrill Lynch as a financial advisor.

00;10;01;14 - 00;10;29;20
Speaker 2
Probably 2008 was probably the worst fucking year to ever do that. So I think I think like, excuse me, two weeks into work, I'm like sending my time and I'm like, I think America just bought us turn to my boss is like, what? I'm like, Oh, really? So that ended quickly, pretty quickly. Like widget. Some woman came in just a piece of paper to the whole office and just says, Yeah, you're, you're done today, you're terminated.

00;10;29;20 - 00;10;52;24
Speaker 2
And I was like, well, actually, one guy sold the company card, so we went to bus pass down Newton's brand up, a big fan there, but so it's like a few years after that to really figure it out. I think it actually was a was a friend or I grew up with that I heard bought a house at like 25 years old and I was like, you know, how do you do that?

00;10;52;26 - 00;11;18;14
Speaker 2
And so I was in software sales, so it was right around the time the iPhone kind of came out to where I was kind of figuring out with apps and whatnot. And I came across this company called Call Minor. They did speech analytics. So basically like, you know, could transcribe this conversation we're having now and analyze it. And it was more for customer service for companies, but that was the first time I kind of heard of such a thing.

00;11;18;14 - 00;11;41;23
Speaker 2
And so I started at the bottom as a BTR, worked my way up and kind of found my specialization and helping you know, series A, Series B type companies where they have sort of maybe one mil to 5 million revenue and they really want to hit that hypergrowth and sort of create those repetitive processes. So I've done that for like seven startups.

00;11;41;29 - 00;12;02;16
Speaker 2
Dude, it's so funny code to explain that because I was the same, same boat on Lloyd's economics. You know, I'm, I go get a job at a bank. They're like, Hey, kid, do you want to analyze some mortgage backed securities that are kind of questionable? And I'm like, sure. And then it's like 28 and no one's hiring. I'm just like, well, this looks bad.

00;12;02;16 - 00;12;29;07
Speaker 2
Like all the statements real bad I guess is real bad. And then so like I knew we're talking in there like, you know, so and so, bought a condo, bought a jeep. And I'm like, like what? Like, how do they buy a condo? Like, really young, you know, like, they're not making money. I got into software sales, so it's funny how we go to Holy Cross, you know, grade school and then we just somebody tells us, sorry, software sales.

00;12;29;09 - 00;12;35;07
Speaker 2
But that's that's really what happened. I think with a lot of people still, those tend to it.

00;12;35;07 - 00;13;02;08
Speaker 1
Is it is I don't think people like we get it because we went through it. It's it's hard for people to really understand what are coming out of college in 2008 was like if you if you didn't do it I don't think people quite appreciate like right now we're in a recession. It's nowhere. It's not like back then, like people were jumping out of buildings in in New York City, like it was a bloodbath.

00;13;02;08 - 00;13;26;15
Speaker 1
And I think it it it it makes us like a really special and unique kind of almost like a, like a micro generation of, you know, we we understand everything before the iPhone because we, you know. Kolb I'm sure you were like me call in one 800, collect on a pay on a pay phone practice and being like practices done Mom pick me up before she had to pay for it.

00;13;27;14 - 00;13;48;07
Speaker 1
But then we also had like Facebook junior and senior year. So there's like stuff on the internet that's going to prevent us from running from president someday. So like, we get both experiences. What would be your, like, biggest piece of advice for an athlete that's listening to this that's about to transition out of the athletic world into civilian life?

00;13;48;07 - 00;14;13;07
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it's, you know, first in terms of choosing your company and and sort of the products are like going into sales, you got to I think you realize, one, going to work for someone that has your best interests at stake or someone that's going to take you under their way and kind of show you the ropes is pretty empowering when you first get started because there's a lot to get through a firehose, right?

00;14;13;22 - 00;14;40;09
Speaker 2
There's so many applications. There is sales software that you need to get accustomed to and then find your sort of your cadence and what you're selling. And what I mean is there's no silver bullet when you go company. Company, right. I think the hardware consensus is there. But, you know, I've had some success with emails, I've had some success with phone calls, and usually it's the blending of the field.

00;14;40;09 - 00;15;02;21
Speaker 2
But someone just getting started. It's be open, be open minded and really see what others are doing around you, the more experienced reps. And you kind of find your own way there by pretty much failure, right? I think it's maybe you don't fail, but you learn at that pace, but it's not easy. So there's a lot of no's to get that.

00;15;02;21 - 00;15;23;25
Speaker 2
Yes. And it can be frustrating. So just make sure you have that attitude going in that, you know, it is lucrative. We do get paid a lot when things go well, but there's a reason why there's you're dealing with a lot of failure and skepticism when you're trying to reach out to these people. And from 2008 till now, it's it's insanely hard to get someone on the other end to speak with you live.

00;15;24;25 - 00;15;46;17
Speaker 2
It's a lot different. You still call people's desk phones and pretty much nonexistent now. So yeah, I would say just have a thick skin and find the right mentor. I think that's great advice. Paul Then going back to Jerry's point about the 102 lack for our age group, right, we have a little bit of different skills than other people.

00;15;46;17 - 00;16;15;25
Speaker 2
I still remember not even 100, but I used to walk around my neighborhood and knock on doors and be like, Hey, is my phone like if you do that today, like, you know, exactly. The ring doorbell is often around the neighborhood. You know, Facebook group. Who is this guy? Yeah, but but it is a good reminder to stay open minded in sales because even now, all the technologies we're using in sales today weren't available in 2829.

00;16;15;25 - 00;16;37;08
Speaker 2
It's just constantly, constantly evolving. I got a question for you. So let's say, you know, some of our listeners come to you one of them comes to you and says, Hey, Brian, I got three job offers on the table, like the O.T. is this the salary, the basis, this, you know, this one has good benefits. They get my contact lenses for free.

00;16;37;08 - 00;17;08;22
Speaker 2
Like, what are some of the factors that you would kind of consider most important when looking at a job offer if you're fresh starting over as a BTR? Yeah, I think when you go into sales, I mean, money should be the most important thing driving you where you want to be in sales. But so I always look at the OTB, but the upside, right, like how much is this company going to allow you to grow in your role and, you know, not oftentimes put guardrails in on like how much you can earn.

00;17;08;22 - 00;17;29;22
Speaker 2
It should be an unlimited cap. Right. And I think what you balance with that, though, is, again, you know, the reputation of the company. You're going to do your homework on the company itself, ask around. I think everyone at this point and especially our networks, probably know someone that's either been there or has a friend that's worked there.

00;17;30;02 - 00;17;58;25
Speaker 2
But do your homework not only on the product in the company, but the people you're going to be working for. You know, ask the reps how many of them have achieved gold in the last quarter or two? What's the turnover like ultimately, money is important, but I think when you're just starting as a BTR, knowing that you have the potential to earn as hard as you work, that's probably what you want to look for when you first start Get Going is making sure you're comfortable with the cash flow they're going to offer you for your base.

00;17;58;25 - 00;18;09;12
Speaker 2
And then knowing that based on either bonuses or commission, that you have that upside without any cap. And I think a lot of companies do that now. And the more money you make, more money the company makes, everyone wins.

00;18;10;19 - 00;18;33;27
Speaker 1
Do you have an opinion for bidders specifically on in-office or remote? Like like what are your thoughts on that? That's a huge by the way, as you can imagine, this generation coming out of college now. They're they're almost picking technology sales because of the flexibility. And I obviously have my own opinion. If you can't tell what is your what is your thought on like remote versus in office for that first role?

00;18;35;11 - 00;18;56;29
Speaker 2
Well, first of all, I think you should be it would be nice if you to be in an office, because there's nothing like hearing that guy across the cube from you or, you know, down the hall, like they're pounding the phones or you hear the success they're having or failures they're having. You can hear them do their pitch and kind of use it to your own, but that's the fastest way you're going to learn, I think.

00;18;56;29 - 00;19;18;22
Speaker 2
Listen to the Zoom calls. I mean, it can be to be frustrated or you don't get a lot of people just read the transcripts, you don't get the tone. But there's nothing like any person hearing everyone kind of doing the same thing. Like my first job was a boiler room. I was legit in New York's Long Island and I was calling doctors.

00;19;19;04 - 00;19;39;01
Speaker 2
And so like that does like you see in the Boiler Room movie, I had a deaf sticker card that to follow. As soon as I got a guy on the phone, I had to give it to the senior rep then. But I learned very quickly as there is ten of us doing it at the same time, what works, what doesn't work, and then you adapt your own style hybrid role.

00;19;39;01 - 00;20;20;11
Speaker 2
I think it's time for that role. I think everyone's trying to do it but it's I've seen and and this is why I love what you guys are doing with the shift group is training these guys right. I think these leaders are just hitting these embryos to get paid and then hiding and they get away with a lot these days and and do control and that now I'm on to my third BTR firm because the turnover and you know like so it's hard to train them one on one without one hurting their feelings sometimes and to it's they're only going after metrics they see in Salesforce or something they're not seeing like the work that

00;20;20;11 - 00;20;33;26
Speaker 2
really goes into that, who's successful and who's not. So some of them think about habits, but if you're not there every day, the trainings once a quarter are usually for us. So you can pick up a lot of bad habits between, you know, three trainings.

00;20;34;22 - 00;20;59;05
Speaker 1
Yeah, I love that. I think, listen, I think flexibility is a good reason to, if you like, autonomy and you eventually want to get to the point where you can golf on a Wednesday at 1:00 in the morning, at 1:00 in the afternoon, then, yeah, technology sales is a great career track, but they need to understand that that that flexibility and that autonomy is learned, is earned right.

00;20;59;05 - 00;21;14;18
Speaker 1
I was like you said, I was tied to two phones for two years before I ever got the right to go get a haircut on a on an afternoon on a weekday. Right. Like it's you got to get there. And I think there's a little bit of entitlement about the flexibility earlier on in your career.

00;21;16;10 - 00;21;36;04
Speaker 2
And school to say, yeah, it's not my job, but it's the same in sports. Like, I remember I was playing like J.V. baseball, and I think I hit a home run. I'm touched like Jersey, like ground and second base and showboat a little bit. And my coach is like, What the hell are you doing? You know, like I was like, Well, I saw so-and-so do it.

00;21;36;04 - 00;21;56;23
Speaker 2
You know, the captain likes he can do whatever he wants, you know, all league. I'm like, Are you going to wait a little bit? No, I can just go. No, it's the same in sales you can't really like. And so you can prove that you can have the double phones and make all these calls. You can't really just start taking mid-week, you know, time off for yourself, right?

00;21;56;24 - 00;22;17;27
Speaker 2
Like that. That's not how it works. No, no way. Yeah. Was spared on that is like what I see a lot is leaders now can get like they'll set up a meeting for you but you get on the call and there's been no in-depth discussion with, you know, or qualifying these people. And so you get on the phone, why not?

00;22;17;28 - 00;22;37;28
Speaker 2
Got you the meeting? And I'm like, Well, that's fine. I mean, you hit your metric, say, but a real BTR, you know, you want to get as close to doing what an E can do on that first call as possible. So take it as far down the sales cycle as you can before you turn it over. You're not to set some guy up, say, or woman being like, Yeah, I just took your call.

00;22;37;28 - 00;22;58;28
Speaker 2
But, you know, I know nothing about your company. No, not your product. That's what I see a lot today. How would you feel? How would you talk to your BTR? Like to work better with the A and build that like foundation. Yeah. You got to have a common language, right? Like communication is key. And I think, you know, I know our company, we're strong on the metric.

00;22;59;07 - 00;23;19;12
Speaker 2
You know, if you guys, no matter very well. So yeah so we've kind of adopted that just to see if we can have some, you know, everyone on the same page is as we start talking about accounts and you know, you go through the sales cycle where we're at and it's important, it can answer, you know, who's the economic buyer?

00;23;19;20 - 00;23;37;03
Speaker 2
You know, what are the what's the decision process look like? Like, you know, who's involved, what are the match? You know, like, I know. I'm just saying. Well, that is but it's that extent and it has really helped. Like when I talk to my BTR, I'm like, get as much information out as possible. I know you're not going to get it all, but like, that's, that should be your goal.

00;23;37;05 - 00;23;43;17
Speaker 2
And then like I'll fill in the blanks on the next call or as we move through the sales cycle. But like you should keep those questions in mind.

00;23;44;01 - 00;24;02;03
Speaker 1
One of the questions we always ask is like, what's the advice you would give to a BTR that wants to get no closing role? And I think you just hit it. It's like do as much of the closing role as you can before you have the closing role. If you can qualify the crap out of a company and like make sure, like you said, you're at you're at power, right?

00;24;02;03 - 00;24;30;15
Speaker 1
You're at that. Or at least you have a path to the economic buyer. You've you've helped the customer identify a pain that like you guys solve. Right? And you can understand like how that pain is showing up from like a metrics perspective. You're only, you're only like two or three steps away. Like from closing it, being able to close the deal, you're going to get that a role a lot faster versus the kid who's just sent meetings because they have the right title on LinkedIn.

00;24;30;15 - 00;24;30;26
Speaker 1
Right.

00;24;32;01 - 00;24;47;23
Speaker 2
Right. Right. It means now that I mean, BTR is, I think I, I pretty much force my boss out to give me a real, like a promotion because I was just doing so much of it and I was like, What's it like? Why am I going to turn this over? The deal's done, you know, and that you can't do that for every product.

00;24;47;23 - 00;25;23;13
Speaker 2
But you know, I've worked at, you know, transactional sales company called and minor. It's a more obviously like selling an ideology and doing data science that did a robot to in a corner or checking a box for using opens you know. So I've been kind of been at all sort of forms of or different styles of selling, but I always encourage my BTR go as far as you can, don't you know if you need help on their here but and I think that's important that your BTR knows that the E trust too and if they don't they're going to ask the right questions and just take it as far as you feel comfortable by your

00;25;23;13 - 00;25;44;18
Speaker 2
goal should be big as far as it goes and each the qualities to go like what you're saying is like quantity. Yeah sure you got the most meetings every month on your team, right? But like if you're a BTR out there listening or if you're becoming a BTR soon, you know, you can set up a meeting with the the security guard at the company.

00;25;44;22 - 00;26;05;28
Speaker 2
Right. And then that counts as a meeting. But if you can set it up with somebody who has some voice at the company and you can qualify it a little better, it's great for you. It's great for a deal. But it's it's really impactful for the day. And they're going to start to notice and they're going to say, wow, this PDR really can set quality meetings.

00;26;05;28 - 00;26;24;00
Speaker 2
And like you said, I was similar. They were kind of like pulled me out of the role. They were like, you're not you're done doing that. You're doing the next role. Like it was just like that obvious. So that's that's it. We haven't really had somebody talk about getting quality meetings. A lot of people talk about hitting your numbers a lot, but I think that's an important thing.

00;26;24;28 - 00;26;45;06
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah. And you also get I think you gave great advice to the the new ways because we fortunately, we work with such talented, talented kids and hardworking and competitive kids and a lot of them get promoted pretty quickly. Right. We've had a kid get those from BTR to A and a second quarter at like a at a large ESPs complex cybersecurity company.

00;26;45;06 - 00;27;07;06
Speaker 1
Right. Like he's going from making cold calls for 90 days. They're closing $100,000 deals. And he was fortunate because he just did the BTR job. So he was working really well with the with the BTR is but what you said about like give them a little bit of, you know, almost like give them some room to sink a little bit and but be there for them when they need your help.

00;27;07;06 - 00;27;24;21
Speaker 1
Like I think that that's a great a BTR relationship where you're letting the BTR do a little bit more. You're not making them do your like, you know, your, your hard work that you don't want to do your busy work, but you're letting them actually do some of your job in a way, not because you don't want to do it because you're trying to get them to be better.

00;27;24;21 - 00;27;25;10
Speaker 1
I love that.

00;27;26;19 - 00;27;47;05
Speaker 2
Yeah, and it's the same thing for eight years with solution architects, writer, sales engineer. It's right. Like you got to be dependent on them. A lot of times for a lot of technical stuff. But as my role is or my job should be to learn as much as that as possible and to take that as far as possible in the sales cycle to the technical questions and then have see, help me when I need it.

00;27;47;05 - 00;27;48;29
Speaker 2
So it goes both ways.

00;27;49;01 - 00;28;08;21
Speaker 1
Yeah. And by the way, it gives you credibility with the customer when you're, when they ask you a fairly technical question and you're a sales guy and you can actually answer it or you can ask a really specific technical question, they're like, all right, this kid, this kid gives a shit, right? Like, that's huge. Mm hmm. Moving over to sales leadership.

00;28;08;21 - 00;28;30;16
Speaker 1
Right. Huge part of the job. It's one of the things I think why athletes are successful in sales is because they're used to the hierarchy of a coach and a captain and, you know, having a leader and having a mentor. But you've seen a lot of sales leadership corp what do you think great sales leadership looks like and how do you think athletes specifically want to be managed?

00;28;31;26 - 00;29;05;22
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think it goes back to when we first started talking about choosing a company, right? Choosing your boss or choosing your manager is just as important. And I've been lucky. I've worked for the same sort of cro VP of sales as VP. This is my first company with them and I've been six and in between companies or roles, I've had other managers come in and even it just reinforced what I look for in a boss and that someone is going to give me the autonomy that I need and you know, to do what I want to do.

00;29;05;23 - 00;29;26;01
Speaker 2
Obviously, we all know I love golf, but you can't play golf year round where we live. So I sort of weigh my work differently than probably the typical CEO or someone that doesn't play golf or doesn't live in New England. So having that flexibility, but also someone is going to feel like is sitting on the same side of the table as rightly.

00;29;26;23 - 00;29;49;11
Speaker 2
I'm not sort of I don't like people, managers per se, someone that's going to look at your calendar and, you know, judge you outside. I think ultimately you're in sales. You got to close deals, you got to head numbers, and that's first and important. Right. And as long as you're doing that, a manager should ask you, hey, what do you need to do your job?

00;29;49;11 - 00;30;14;06
Speaker 2
Well, there's other times where the more of the people manager in this and this I have seen is like, you need this type of person too is like, you know, they're not organized, but they need to be able to be have task oriented like filled days. Right? Like I want you to spend 2 hours blocking off sourcing names doing that and those types of managers, although not for me, do help a lot of people.

00;30;14;08 - 00;30;42;02
Speaker 2
But it's I think the best manager is one that's going to help you close a deal rather than judge you. If you don't close a deal, you know, you don't ask, oh well what went wrong per say there know you want someone to say, well, what can we do better? Where do you think we drop the ball? And they do somewhat homework with you rather than someone just looking from the outside, looking in on a sales cycle that goes wrong and says, Well, I told you shouldn't, you know, so I've had both.

00;30;42;02 - 00;31;02;09
Speaker 2
So I think you want someone that feels like they they want they're there for you. They're there to help. And they're not just there to and you're treated as a number. And if you donate your number, you're gone. And I like someone to be kind of emotionally invested in their aid. I didn't know you had the same zero or as for five or six companies, that's pretty cool.

00;31;02;09 - 00;31;23;07
Speaker 2
You don't you don't hear about that too much. What you do, you know, you kind of follow people around and work for them. If you like working with somebody at one company that's going to translate. Yeah. His name is John Shepherd and he's he's actually I applied. So this is like going and trying to get out of my first role as a BTR inside sales rep.

00;31;23;16 - 00;31;41;29
Speaker 2
They actually outsource my platform. I was able to sell the cloud platform and the outsource IT consultants and so I was looking to get back in. I close and roll. You know, I interviewed for this job. They said, you know, my requirements were too much at the time, but four months later, this guy calls me, hey, come on in.

00;31;42;09 - 00;32;07;22
Speaker 2
You know, I love athletes. He played tennis himself at Vanderbilt, and so he was an athlete. And he kind of took his way and trained me and sort of I trusted him. And yeah. So this is I think six companies have been together. We both done like us based companies, we've done a couple of companies in Israel together, which are obviously a different world.

00;32;07;22 - 00;32;10;10
Speaker 2
I'm not sure if you guys have ever worked for Turbo, really.

00;32;10;16 - 00;32;12;09
Speaker 1
Turbo is Israeli founders.

00;32;13;25 - 00;32;38;12
Speaker 2
So, you know, what I'm talking about is I just you just you know, you live, you learn. I've seen a lot of them. But unfortunately, like I don't you always have to deal with that. Oh, well, look how many companies you've worked out. But they said, well, it means, you know, if I'm in for a series A Series B company and I'm only there for a year to eight months, well, that's what I specialize in right now.

00;32;38;12 - 00;32;59;05
Speaker 2
You know, I got them either to a goal that they wanted to be at and now I wanted to go chase and do it for someone else is that's what I like to do. Or, you know, like it's very hard, as you know, in startups, I mean, 12 months is like five years like a big corporation. So and there's always constant change, constant turnover at the executive level typically.

00;32;59;17 - 00;33;24;23
Speaker 2
I mean, I've been at two companies or the CEO has been either stepped down or let go. And you just know what happens, right? There's a new CEO's going to bring in their team, bring in their top sales guy. So it's you got to deal with the highs and the lows. So I think the big thing about sales is having your your first line boss, the someone you can trust, is there is there a way for you or how can a wrap right now who's interviewing for a job?

00;33;25;07 - 00;33;47;15
Speaker 2
How can they figure out whether or not they enjoy working for their boss or the person they're interviewing with during the interview? Yeah, I think anyone I think it takes a little bit of a good judge of character on the on the interviewers and writer interviewees and that as well as don't be afraid to reach out to people that have that are working for them already or have worked for them in the past.

00;33;48;06 - 00;34;05;22
Speaker 2
I mean, LinkedIn is a good tool. You can you can see where the day, then you can see some of the reviews about them. And but I would say, you know, ask work related questions and work personal questions. You know, you're going to have to ultimately spend a lot of time with this person and they're going to kind of control your fate.

00;34;05;22 - 00;34;25;04
Speaker 2
One way or another. So I think you don't be afraid to ask questions honestly, don't want to get too personal, but, you know, ask what they're looking for in their reps. What do they expect? What's been your history? What's your typical turnover? How do you tell you? Ask them how they deliver bad news, right? Like when's the last time you fired someone?

00;34;25;04 - 00;34;41;07
Speaker 2
Like how did that go? You know, so, like, I've had bosses that in the past said like, they're going to let you go, but they're passive aggressive and they're like, hey, well, just, you know, let's just communicate this. It's not working out. It doesn't help either one of us is if I'm miserable and you're miserable, like, just figure it out.

00;34;41;07 - 00;34;46;05
Speaker 2
So I think it's don't be afraid to ask them the right questions.

00;34;46;05 - 00;35;02;00
Speaker 1
That's so true. I mean I mean, that's and that's what we train on is like the interviews, a two way interview. They're interviewing you to see if you're fit, you're interviewing them to see if they're fit. Is the leadership the Fed is the product of that is the culture of they're like, those are the things you've got to dig in on big time and you're.

00;35;02;01 - 00;35;21;06
Speaker 2
Got to be we've got to be real personable and the judge of character is huge. It goes both ways, too. I totally one of the one of the reps I that top rep I interviewed years ago, he told me I was his hardest interview ever because he prepared for the interview. He knew everything that he was going to say.

00;35;21;20 - 00;35;41;23
Speaker 2
The first thing I asked him is, What are you doing this weekend? And he said he didn't prepare for that. And he was like, so caught off guard. And I just wanted to see if as a normal person, you know, like really kind of awkward when you get those questions. But too many times I think in interviews, people, they just revert back to numbers and the proper way to speak.

00;35;41;23 - 00;36;02;06
Speaker 2
And I don't think that translates to well in sales. No, I always like to test the waters by swearing. I know it's like off the off the chain all better, but everyone should do it. But, you know, I'm not going to probably drop in F-bomb, but like, you know, shit or something and just see how they react. I mean, like, yeah, shit, I can't hide who I am anyways.

00;36;02;06 - 00;36;17;01
Speaker 2
So it's either whether you like it or not, but I'm not going to fake it because if I think it and I get there and it's like, well, they thought I was one person, I'm another, so I don't oh shit, I'm on the way out the door anyways, I used to test people. Yeah. What did you say you used to do?

00;36;17;01 - 00;36;21;14
Speaker 2
Like with the ASP legs? They're like, What's up, psycho or something like that.

00;36;21;17 - 00;36;40;15
Speaker 1
I would. I would come in the room. I was the last step for eight years and BTR candidates at turbo and commercial and I would walk in the room and slap them up. I'd slap them on the back like a hello and I'd be like, What's up, you savage? No matter who I was, just to see how they reacted.

00;36;40;15 - 00;36;58;10
Speaker 1
Like, just to see like, can they handle themselves? Because that's to your point, that's who I am. Like, that's how, you know, like I start every podcast with, What's up, kid? I say, What's up, kid? To my mom? I'm like, You know, my mom, me. I'm like, What's up, kid? Right? Like, you got to bring your authentic self to this to this career.

00;36;58;10 - 00;37;15;23
Speaker 1
Like, it's probably one of the most important things, right? We talk about guys, but they're tech sales voice on and all of a sudden they're like very professional and oh, you should see how we work with, you know, this API, right? It's like, no, like talk about it. How you would talk about it with someone that you're friends with.

00;37;18;00 - 00;37;21;15
Speaker 1
Exactly. Exactly. But I put on that call.

00;37;21;15 - 00;37;26;09
Speaker 2
When did you get glasses? I don't have glasses. Right. You know, you see that a lot of that.

00;37;27;23 - 00;37;47;00
Speaker 1
So you mentioned media. Can you get like I'm curious, you know, you've been doing this a long time. You know how to close deals like what are how do you approach job? What are like the habits are like what you would describe as like the cornerstones of of your approach to being a quota carrying senior account executive.

00;37;47;00 - 00;38;12;07
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think is very quickly becoming an expert in your own product. Right? Like you got to do the homework, you got to know that the competitive field or what's out there and what's the key differentiator in your platform, it's not always easy. I think, you know, the current company I'm now, we're still working this out. We're actually all out in Denver next week to even spend more time on this, but find out the key differentiators.

00;38;13;14 - 00;38;34;25
Speaker 2
Then you got to know who you're going to be selling to. So a lot of it is doing your homework and getting like getting that show as much as possible and sort of a safe way. I think as a senior account executive, I know I can maybe turn to a few people in my past at different companies and sort of get a feel for where I'm not you know, it's not sink or swim with them.

00;38;34;25 - 00;38;55;25
Speaker 2
I'm like, Hey, I'm here now. This is my platform. What is that? And then sort of, you know, use the tools that you're giving or ask for the tools that can make you productive. A big one for me, sales loft. I'm just very I like to do my work in bunches, at least a lot of my sourcing for, you know, prospecting.

00;38;56;26 - 00;39;30;12
Speaker 2
So being able to leverage those tools and make sure your, your like Salesforce, whatever CRM you're using, make sure you spend a lot of time in there when you're a new A to figure out, you know, who are the customers. Look at the sort of the sales cycle and what it's taken to get them to be a customer, look at the conversations and then ultimately I would sit in on some calls or if you're now, everything's recorded, so zoom meetings and get a feel for how other people are pitching it and then try to create that story into my own.

00;39;30;12 - 00;39;58;01
Speaker 2
And I think everyone kind of has their own way of of how their products, you know, team was involved or why your company was founded. But put it into your own words, put your own spin and be consistent when you're prospecting. I think it's it's a numbers game. We know. But again, if you have the expertize or the knowledge, what makes your product different is being persistent and and trying to get in front of those right people.

00;39;58;01 - 00;40;18;21
Speaker 2
And when you do have that pitch dialed in and I always say lose as a team, you're better off losing as a team than losing as an individual. So don't be afraid to ask for help around your organization if you need something, especially when it comes to the product. It's how you know your product manager come in for a meeting if needed.

00;40;18;21 - 00;40;38;07
Speaker 2
You know, one of our founders is is a big time lawyer for a source. So when it comes to legal side of things, just don't be afraid to bring them in. Because if the worst thing to do is, you know, you do your weekly sales meetings and see how a deal is, then oh, great, great, great. And then you get three weeks off the quarter, does a quiz and no one knows why, you know?

00;40;38;10 - 00;40;42;10
Speaker 2
So being transparent is another key to being a senior.

00;40;42;29 - 00;40;59;00
Speaker 1
It doesn't it doesn't surprise me that that team selling thing is is one of your like great habits because you talked about what you look for in a leader is somebody that is employing you and blaming you. When I when I was when I was running the team at Turbo, I had this thing on my desk. It was this big boat.

00;40;59;14 - 00;41;22;08
Speaker 1
And I had these these terracotta soldiers. And I had names on every terracotta soldier and would talk about a deal. And I would literally be like, All right, how is marketing helped you? And we put them on the boat. How is the channel helped you? Have you brought in Ben, the CEO or Mo, the CFO like? And the analogy I would use is like, listen, the deal is a boat.

00;41;22;09 - 00;41;40;12
Speaker 1
You're out in the water. It's either going to it's either going to sail or it's going to sink. And the last thing you want to do if it sinks, is have somebody sitting on the beach and pointing the finger at you. If everybody's on the boat and you lose the deal, it's a team loss. And that's that's like the best way to approach managing a deal.

00;41;40;12 - 00;41;41;25
Speaker 1
So that dude, I love that.

00;41;41;25 - 00;41;59;07
Speaker 2
That's unreal. I like that. And then the pitch to go, you're talking about like getting your product story down like you mentioned it a lot. And I think in sales, a lot of people who are new to sales are always like, okay, I have to learn the pitch, I have to learn this. But it's basically like, can you tell a good story?

00;41;59;24 - 00;42;14;28
Speaker 2
You know, are you good story? Exactly. And you two, I could sit on the couch and, you know, 38 terribleness to tell stories all night. So, I mean, you might listen to me. I don't know if I can get a full sentence out, but I think I think we can all three of us can tell a good story right.

00;42;14;28 - 00;42;16;08
Speaker 2
Like that's what it's all about.

00;42;16;29 - 00;42;25;22
Speaker 1
And back then, you couldn't really understand what we were saying. But I mean.

00;42;25;22 - 00;42;39;23
Speaker 2
So you also say you guys clean it up here. Now it's in the next half hour. It's all about tape. We did what we were do. Yeah, not.

00;42;39;23 - 00;42;42;21
Speaker 1
Enough time in the day.

00;42;42;21 - 00;43;00;08
Speaker 2
You know, we're allowed back there. But so you need to talk scope about other sales people and companies so you can kind of reach out to and mentorship is a big part of the podcast. We asked a lot of people about mentorship. Are there any mentors you've had in your sales career and what have you learned from them?

00;43;00;17 - 00;43;22;10
Speaker 2
Yeah, I would say, you know, like my current boss, John Shepherd, really has done a lot for me up to this point as being an individual quote, a caring person. I have made some small teams here and there. I'm really looking to take that next step with this company in the next few weeks here. So we'll see if it gets done.

00;43;22;10 - 00;43;45;20
Speaker 2
But and then I'll be in a more dependent upon him in terms of how do you manage people, how do you like to manage people? And in doing more of the admin stuff that BP's got to have to do, right, like the the reporting, how do you talk to a board, how you interact with investors that type stuff on a higher level and is something I'm looking forward to.

00;43;45;20 - 00;44;08;26
Speaker 2
But John Sheppard's definitely helped me a lot. I think the other thing too is I have, you know, a few friends in this world as well. I know, you know, I have a pulse on what you guys are doing. I have a pulse. You know, all my friends that are sort of whether we're acquaintances now or teammates at one point, but anywhere in the software world, you know, it's very we're bouncing around here and there a decent amount.

00;44;08;26 - 00;44;27;22
Speaker 2
So hitting them up and just asking them, you know, why they made a move or what's going on, what are they seeing, whether it's going from like data science is super hot. Like five years ago when I was first getting into it or like seven years ago and then it's moved more towards security and cybersecurity and is sort of having a pulse on what's going on.

00;44;28;01 - 00;44;56;14
Speaker 2
But I think having a group of mentors is always important and I kind of have on different levels, right? So I have peers that I can kind of see as mentors or influencers. I have a boss that would say this stuff had been more of that. You know, when you think of the mentor definition that as well as the first job I ever had or software, the founder CTO, this guy Jeff Guarino, he may be the smartest person I've literally ever met.

00;44;56;14 - 00;45;15;29
Speaker 2
Like you makes Brant Franklin look like Pee-Wee Herman, you know? But he's this guy is just a genius, and he's also one of, like, the best sellers, too. So I lean on him a lot. He's a coal miner and they're doing really well. But I'll hit him up every couple of months and be like, Hey, what's going on?

00;45;17;12 - 00;45;35;03
Speaker 2
And it's cool to see what he's doing and what he sees. But just speaking with them and talking with them about software in general or where it's going is it's so educational and it kind of motivates you to see what's next. I know we all get caught up in our everyday job and that's cool that you guys are doing your own thing.

00;45;35;19 - 00;45;52;01
Speaker 2
But like when you're working for the man and you know you're trying to sell software, you're just pounding. It's not going well. It's very easy to pick up and like, see what? I'll walk over the fence, see what else everyone's doing. It's natural, and I think it's healthy too. I think it's you want to know what's going on because it either will motivate you.

00;45;52;14 - 00;46;03;04
Speaker 2
And I'm, you know, again, motivated by money. So you want to make as much as you can and to know what's working for other people. It may we're not may or may not work for you, but it doesn't hurt to know.

00;46;03;20 - 00;46;22;16
Speaker 1
You got to get comfortable talking about being motivated by money. And I you know, it's it's a little cliche in today's society, but like, listen, it that's, you know, call it what it is. Money equals freedom. And that's what we all want. So, you know, you should be driven, especially if you want to get into sales to make as much money as possible.

00;46;22;16 - 00;46;40;12
Speaker 1
That should be one of the most important things to you, and that's just the reality of it. And if you are, you're going to do the right things, right. You're going to care about the customer. You got to become an expert in your product. You got to learn the right skills and habits because doing those things turns into a financial outcome, which is what's driving it.

00;46;40;27 - 00;47;02;01
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you work for the customer more than you work for your own employer? Right. I think you want to make sure the next time you knock on that person's door to sell them something and you know they're going to take your calls. Everyone remembers who you are, right? When something bad happens. And it's you know, unfortunately, I've been on the bad end of that.

00;47;02;01 - 00;47;17;18
Speaker 2
Right. You sold something and product told you they were going to put something on the roadmap or something was on the roadmap. It never gets delivered, comes around. You know, you're not getting that deal done. So it's, you know, work on behalf of your customer as well. So yeah, that's a just.

00;47;17;18 - 00;47;21;26
Speaker 1
Give me an idea if you just gave me an idea for LinkedIn Post. Thanks, Cobra.

00;47;21;26 - 00;47;52;02
Speaker 2
And that was I was just to be clear, that was our first Pee-Wee Herman shout out in the merchant segment. So Diesel appreciate it. We got it. So we're going to final questions. I'll ask the first one that we talk on the podcast a lot about skills that make a salesperson an elite, so curious to know what is your skill that makes you elite as a salesperson?

00;47;52;14 - 00;48;31;05
Speaker 2
Negotiating. I can get a pass if I'm part of a deal or I know what's going on. And as long as I've done my end of the job in terms of setting expectations, it's six success criteria as we're going through the sales cycle, whether we're doing an evaluation or not, I'm pretty good at holding people accountable at the end and basically make getting a deal done, whether you've got a day to get it done or a week, whatever it is as we started talking, all right, we're interested and but, you know, this is usually before you get to procurement because that's a whole different type of negotiating.

00;48;32;11 - 00;49;06;13
Speaker 2
And frankly, I love messy little procurement people. I know your job. I know how you get paid. Right? So let's see, what are we doing here? You're going to you're not going to be the one that definitely says yes or no. You're just getting to whatever. But anyways, I love negotiating. And again, this is where you act on behalf of your customer too, with if you're trying to get them to do a one deal, but you know, you have a product, that value really takes 12 to 24 months to go through, you know, be open to having that conversation, you know, make sure you ask them upfront, you know, what's what's your budget?

00;49;06;13 - 00;49;28;23
Speaker 2
What are you spending now? Here's what we expect to see you. Here's where, you know, rely like it is. Be comfortable with that and be confident in ultimately. Yeah, thinking you get something done it's again you're usually saying twice, once to the line of business, the ones to procurement, but I love getting everyone out the table and making sure everyone walks away thinking that they won the negotiation.

00;49;28;23 - 00;49;49;18
Speaker 2
That's a good negotiator. So called. I know I said two more questions, but I'm curious, too. You are a great negotiator, in my opinion, and outside of experience, a lot life experience and sales experience. Any advice on how to get better at negotiating podcast books or any any kind of outside of your eyes? Yeah, I think. What is it?

00;49;50;11 - 00;50;12;21
Speaker 2
Jordan Belfort is the whale of the wolf. That's a pretty good one to read, right? I think. I wouldn't say I'm like cutthroat negotiator. I'm just very stern. So I think I think hearing it listen to I'm not sure if I listen to too many podcasts. Obviously, I listen to a lot of like I would say it's podcast on my end.

00;50;12;21 - 00;50;39;27
Speaker 2
It's more reading books like like Ben Isaac books like sort of books that are interesting but do talk about business deals, Moneyball or bring it down the heart, like stuff like that. I think reading and just seeing the style, I mean there is a book, there are negotiating. I don't know. I think what everyone needs to find their own style, but I think the best way to get good at negotiation is in actually at the final table.

00;50;39;27 - 00;50;58;06
Speaker 2
Right. It's setting up to be able to negotiate is is what I see negotiating rate. And what I mean by that, again, is when you're engaged with a process that you're writing down in reiterating to them and showing them this is what you want or this is what you're looking for, here's your pain. This is how we're going to solve it.

00;50;58;06 - 00;51;20;17
Speaker 2
And as soon as you check off that, hey, do you agree we solve that and then you're in the right point place to start asking for their business. But don't be afraid to ask. That's right. I think I've seen the sort of the mediocre sales reps, they're just okay with having meeting after meeting after meeting and then, hey, let's go get someone from a different kind of business with organizations.

00;51;20;17 - 00;51;46;22
Speaker 2
If we get them to champion this, whereas just ask for the business and then get to the negotiation table, then you can almost always get something done. And but that's why we're going to start ups, too, right? I think you should be like CFOs in the financial side of the house. You should be trying to get as many deals off the street as possible and then work on your business model around customer retention and RR after that.

00;51;46;22 - 00;51;59;06
Speaker 2
But when you're first, you know, going to market with your to get as many logos as possible and then negotiation should be pretty easy, right? So getting better, it just takes practice totally.

00;51;59;15 - 00;52;05;13
Speaker 1
Totally. All right. Last question, buddy. And I know you got to run to Indian Pond, so we'll get through a quick.

00;52;06;24 - 00;52;10;22
Speaker 2
We are reporting this on a Saturday morning. Right? We're partners of Saturday morning.

00;52;10;22 - 00;52;32;17
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's Saturday. You know, it's a great weekend ahead of you. So so we can we always used to say, like, there's a lot of people that play hockey, but there's not a lot of people that are hockey players. Right. There's a difference between selling software and being a software sales professional. And we think that being a pro is the highest praise you can give someone.

00;52;32;26 - 00;52;37;06
Speaker 1
So last question. What does being a pro in sales mean to you?

00;52;39;02 - 00;53;07;08
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's B, being adaptable, being agile, being open minded, smart, and being able to have an idea of how the sales cycle wants should go or how you expect it to go, but be able to move quickly when it doesn't go your way and it's being persistent is being able to ask for help or is also being able to say, I don't know, but it's ultimately you do what it takes to get the job done.

00;53;07;10 - 00;53;27;00
Speaker 2
Don't tell me how rough the water is. Just get the boat in type deal. And then to be sort of like you got to be likable as a salesperson, right? No one wants an asshole on their team. So it's it's being able to work as an individual in it within a team environment is what makes a real sales breath.

00;53;27;00 - 00;53;32;03
Speaker 1
I love it. I love it. It's awesome. Awesome. Carmelo, Brian, thank you.

00;53;33;00 - 00;53;37;19
Speaker 2
Good to see you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

00;53;38;11 - 00;54;01;02
Speaker 1
This wraps up this episode of Making Some Change. If you enjoyed this episode, the most meaningful way to say thanks is to submit a review wherever you listen to podcasts. If you're interested in working with us, please come find us at WW Dot Chef Group Dot App.