Merchants of Change

00:36:36:17 - 00:37:05:08
JR Butler/John Davis
Today on the show, we have Maura Sweeney, director of alumni career and professional development at the College of the Holy Cross in the heart of the Commonwealth Western Massachusetts. Maura talks that folks all day, every day about transitioning into new careers and has some great insights for our audience today.

00:37:07:14 - 00:37:32:08
JR Butler/John Davis
I'm J.R. Butler, co-founder of the Shift Group. And you're listening to Merchants of Change. this is a podcast about transferring the skills and behaviors we acquire as athletes into being a professional technology salesperson. Each week, we'll introduce you to a top performer who will help us understand how they became professional merchants of change.

00:37:37:12 - 00:37:57:20
JR Butler/John Davis
What's up, kid? How are we doing there? What's happening? Good, good. How are you? Good, man. I'm excited. We got we got Maura Sweeney, director of alumni career and professional development at Holy Cross today in the and John's alma mater. Little little unique of an episode, but very excited for the conversation. Maura, thank you for joining us this week.

00:37:58:07 - 00:38:02:11
Maura Sweeney
Oh, my pleasure. John and J.R., it's awesome to get to see you both again.

00:38:02:11 - 00:38:13:07
JR Butler/John Davis
Absolutely. We love having crusaders. We love having the crusaders on here. Absolutely. Purple, purple pride. And you're also an alumni, too, right, Maura?

00:38:13:20 - 00:38:15:12
Maura Sweeney
I am class of 2007.

00:38:16:01 - 00:38:17:19
JR Butler/John Davis
There you go. Right before John and I.

00:38:18:03 - 00:38:18:15
Maura Sweeney
That's right.

00:38:19:20 - 00:38:43:02
JR Butler/John Davis
So, Maura, like I said, with this, is a little unique for us. We're typically talking to folks that have already kind of pursued a career in sales and had a lot of success and came from an athletic background. For this episode, we're really kind of talking about like almost that pre transition before these folks have made the move into sales.

00:38:44:05 - 00:38:56:10
JR Butler/John Davis
So we want to really kind of get some some ideas and some some things out there to people that are in the middle of the transition, I guess to start. Maura, do you want to just talk a little bit about about your background?

00:38:57:11 - 00:39:17:21
Maura Sweeney
Sure. Yeah. So so as you know, graduated from Holy Cross. I was there on the on the Hill at the same time you guys were. And I left Holy Cross and did something that is common among many people, fell into my first job and something that is very common if you talk to anyone who works in insurance fell into a job.

00:39:17:21 - 00:39:46:05
Maura Sweeney
In insurance. So my first job was working in health insurance, in recruiting and supporting three recruiters. And one of the things that was awesome about that job was I got full exposure to the inner workings of a business and the inner workings of hiring and recruiting. I also got to help out with some learning and development with the training team, and there were some internal coaches that I got to help out when they were in our building, so it was really, really fun.

00:39:46:06 - 00:40:02:08
Maura Sweeney
Little did I know it would set the stage for what I would continue to do for the rest of my life. From the other side of the table. But it was a lot of fun. I did that for a few years. I on the side pursued a master's in adult in organizational learning to really build out that training skill set.

00:40:02:21 - 00:40:29:14
Maura Sweeney
I worked at MIT for a few years in a program, but I like to say, as you go to a place like MIT and there are lots of random, interesting, innovative programs and offices that can exist at a place like MIT. So I help to give out awards to inventors and innovators. For about two years, which was really interesting, getting to to talk to the different personalities and minds, the geniuses of of MIT and in the world.

00:40:30:01 - 00:40:49:23
Maura Sweeney
And then about a decade ago, I moved over to Holy Cross. So I have been at Holy Cross for 11 years, the first six and a half in the career center, working with employers and students and young alumni. And about four years ago, I moved to the alumni office, where my focus is on supporting alumni of all ages with anything career.

00:40:50:05 - 00:40:51:21
Maura Sweeney
And it's it's a lot of fun.

00:40:53:12 - 00:41:18:19
JR Butler/John Davis
And is awesome. And I think probably the most surprising thing that people will hear in this episode is that you went to college with John and I and you're still talking to us. So that's a that's a pretty that's a pretty big deal. We both changed a lot since back then, that is. I didn't even know about your stop in insurance or M.I.T. That's really cool.

00:41:20:02 - 00:41:45:11
JR Butler/John Davis
So you were at Holy Cross. Basically, if I do the math correctly, like you didn't go there until, like five years after after you and for six years after you graduated. What was like with Holy Cross then versus now? Like, what was that experience like? Like you said, you fell into insurance. I fell into software sales. They had the career services department.

00:41:45:11 - 00:41:59:04
JR Butler/John Davis
But I don't know that like I don't know that I did a good job leveraging it. Like, from your perspective, what was what was that experience like attending Holy Cross and having like the career services that now you're part of? What was that like?

00:41:59:14 - 00:42:17:19
Maura Sweeney
You know, it's I credit I credit the career services for helping bring me back to Holy Cross and I can tell you the story for that. But it was really funny when I did come back, and one of my key roles was I ran the career fair every year when I was on the student side, and I never went to the career fair when I was a student.

00:42:18:00 - 00:42:38:07
Maura Sweeney
So there was a whole lot of guilt that I felt. And, you know, doing that revisionist history, telling students like, Oh, if only I had gone and you need to go. I'm telling you that I didn't go. And I also was fine and what's what was nice. So I did I did do internships. I worked you know, with staff in the office.

00:42:38:07 - 00:42:58:16
Maura Sweeney
And I was a student and did those one on one appointments, which were really invaluable. But the funny story of that, what brought me back to Holy Cross is I was working at MIT, living in Somerville, which was a hot place for people in their twenties. And the woman who I had worked with, she was my career coach when I was a student.

00:42:59:10 - 00:43:19:05
Maura Sweeney
We had stayed connected and she messaged me on Facebook and said, Hey, I see you're in higher ed now. My old job is open at Holy Cross. I think you should apply for it. And I thought the second I graduated, you're not supposed to continue doing this for me. And at first I said, No way am I leaving Cambridge by my leaving this this area.

00:43:19:19 - 00:43:39:02
Maura Sweeney
But the more I thought about it, I said, Oh, I can't pass this up. So it brought me back. It ended up working out was a great opportunity and it's been a lot of fun to see how the college has changed and even just how the field of career services has changed. I mean, my current job and alumni career services, we're still a burgeoning field.

00:43:39:02 - 00:44:01:22
Maura Sweeney
There aren't that many schools that offer dedicated alumni career programing like Holy Cross does. Usually it's the big universities that have hundreds of thousands of alums that dedicate staff. So it's been a lot of fun to see it emerge and grow. The student body is different for for us at Holy Cross, it's a lot more diverse, which is wonderful getting people from different parts of the country, which is great.

00:44:02:06 - 00:44:19:21
Maura Sweeney
So I mean, if you go to campus, it looks totally different. There are new buildings popping up all over the place. So it's it's nice, you know, at a time when higher ed is is going through some challenges nationally. It's good to see that things are things are still going well at Holy Cross.

00:44:19:21 - 00:44:23:14
JR Butler/John Davis
You just have to get back to Worcester. Is that what it was like?

00:44:24:13 - 00:44:38:02
Maura Sweeney
You know, Worcester Western is growing and changing. I mean, it's like that's another huge thing over the past five, six years, it's finally, finally coming into its own, which is is exciting.

00:44:38:16 - 00:45:00:05
JR Butler/John Davis
I drove down I drove to it recently more. And it's sort of a polar park where the Red Sox have the team now. And I was just like blown away with the downtown area is it's coming up big time and I know J.R likes that yeah I'm I mean I'm a west tickets through and through it's the heart of the commonwealth John it's the fastest growing city doing that.

00:45:00:05 - 00:45:01:02
JR Butler/John Davis
Don't sleep on risk.

00:45:01:02 - 00:45:03:12
Maura Sweeney
No place to be.

00:45:04:20 - 00:45:24:00
JR Butler/John Davis
Yeah absolutely. So. So that's a really cool story and how you ended up in your current role. So like you have a lot different, you have similar conversations to like what we have on a daily basis. I talk to a lot of kids that started in one career and then they come to us as athletes especially, and they're missing.

00:45:24:15 - 00:45:44:10
JR Butler/John Davis
Like the thing that that we hear a lot is, okay, I'm missing the competition. I'm missing the the continuous growth. What I did a lot of the conversations start with you with alumni. Like I'm trying to think of a situation where an alumni comes to you and then says, hey, like, I'm not I'm either not happy or, you know, I want to do something different.

00:45:44:11 - 00:45:49:04
JR Butler/John Davis
Like, Well, what is that? What are those conversations typically look like? Great for you in your role.

00:45:49:06 - 00:46:15:08
Maura Sweeney
Yeah. You know, for me, I think my favorite conversations are the ones that start out with someone saying, I have no idea what I want to do. I'm completely lost and I have no idea because that to me opens up all possibilities. And so whether it's that person or whether it's someone who comes and says, like, I've got a clear idea, I've been doing this and and I've been following this path and it's not working.

00:46:15:08 - 00:46:41:06
Maura Sweeney
You know, both sides of the extreme. My first approach is usually is usually the same to really figure out, well, okay, what have you been doing? But also who are you and what do you really like and what motivates you? Why do you work hard? How do you work hard? And trying to get to get really to the root of it, because self-reflection is something that people don't always want to do.

00:46:41:15 - 00:47:05:11
Maura Sweeney
I understand that I am an outlier in terms of the amount of self-reflection that I enjoy and people will often comment that I ask. I asked some big questions early on that they aren't prepared for, but I think you need to really go deep into who you are, how you tick, what you really want in order to understand what kind of a job is going to bring out the best in you.

00:47:06:08 - 00:47:28:02
Maura Sweeney
So for any of those conversations where someone says like, I'm completely lost, I'm all over the place, I've got no idea. Usually they have an idea. They just don't have the confidence yet to follow it. And so it's often helping them to understand that the path that they're curious about can be a possibility if they put some work into it.

00:47:28:07 - 00:47:42:10
Maura Sweeney
And then it's it's really bringing all of our resources to help lift them up and help them move forward along that path. But I have yet to see someone who claims that they're lost turn out to be really lost.

00:47:42:10 - 00:47:53:03
JR Butler/John Davis
That's a that's a really hard question. It's a really hard question to ask. What motivates you? How do you pull that out of people? Because most people don't even know.

00:47:53:03 - 00:48:26:03
Maura Sweeney
Yeah, you know, I'm so I'm reading a book right now. It was written, I think over a decade ago called Flow by Me. I took the knee high and it's all about these optimal experiences. When we lose track of time, when we feel like we're in the moment, everything feels effortless. It's something that athletes can really, really resonate with because it's part of the reason why a lot of people have stayed with their sport to such a high level because they're constantly working harder to get that optimal experience.

00:48:26:03 - 00:48:49:00
Maura Sweeney
They know what it feels like in their bones and they need to continue to work hard to keep that achievement. And so for a lot of people, it's starting to understand what are those moments where I lose track of time, where the work feels effortless, where I leave, thinking I might be exhausted? But that was awesome. That was amazing.

00:48:49:24 - 00:49:16:23
Maura Sweeney
And it's helping them to then once you can identify that experience, to unpack it, like, why were you working really hard and why did you push yourself so hard? Who helped push you so hard? What were you trying to achieve through that experience? Because I mean, for the two of you, you were athletes. My guess is that what motivated you was very different because each person gets motivated very differently.

00:49:16:23 - 00:49:45:23
Maura Sweeney
I rode on the crew team for two years when I was at Holy Cross and it was fascinating to see that a coach who motivated me really well didn't motivate some of my teammates and vice versa, and how it really is a very individualized understanding of that unique motivation that you can turn to teammates and friends to try to understand their experience, maybe get some ideas for you, but you have to do that hard work for yourself to really understand.

00:49:47:18 - 00:49:51:03
Maura Sweeney
How does that resonate with you guys?

00:49:51:03 - 00:50:26:11
JR Butler/John Davis
I've actually heard about this concept of love more. I read a book called Designing Your Life. Yes. And they talked about it. Yeah, it's a great book. Somebody actually cruising career services recommended to me and years ago. But anyways, it talks about this concept of you kind of lose yourself in your day to day. And in that part where you're flowing, that's where you should try to figure out if you can make a career out of that or do steps to kind of pursue what that is, whether it be speaking or coaching or working out or, you know, talking to people.

00:50:26:12 - 00:50:43:22
JR Butler/John Davis
You should try to incorporate that into your career. And I thought that was a very interesting concept and it made me start to think about how do I recognize times in my day where I'm I'm going through the day and I'm like, okay, I'm in flow mode. This is what I like to do. This is and what J.R. said, though, it's really hard.

00:50:43:24 - 00:51:03:16
JR Butler/John Davis
It's really hard to reflect on who you are and what you going to do. And I think maybe some people, when they come to you, they're they're asking for permission. You know, they want you to tell them, hey, it's going to be okay to go pursue this or, you know, I coach somebody one time and i said, look, i think you should probably be in h.r.

00:51:03:16 - 00:51:25:01
JR Butler/John Davis
And they were like, h.r. Why would i be in h.r. And you tell me you want to work with people and solve problems every day. So check out h.r. now, you know, in H.R., but they were looking for permission. So I mean, it's some of our athletes that we've worked with are, regardless of the situation, they're looking for permission to pursue a sales career.

00:51:25:01 - 00:51:27:11
JR Butler/John Davis
Do you see you see more alumni?

00:51:27:11 - 00:52:10:15
Maura Sweeney
Yeah. You know, what's interesting right now is and this we're speaking at year 2.5 of the pandemic and I'm take take from it what you will I'm talking to a lot of teachers who are interested in getting out of being a classroom teacher and one of the first things that they're looking to is sales. And so I'm having a lot of conversations with people about what it would look like to work for one of their vendors and to work on a sales or business development role because they understand the teachers that they would be selling to.

00:52:10:15 - 00:52:34:16
Maura Sweeney
And it's it's one of the most common conversations I've had in the past, I would say six months. And, you know, in general, sales and tech sales in particular, as people are seeing the growth in the market, has been something that people are curious about and they don't always know how to break in. So it's it's some conversations about really working that network to understand, you know, how to break in.

00:52:36:14 - 00:53:00:21
Maura Sweeney
But I would say it's it's lately been people who are in some of those peripheral industries that are looking to make a slight, slight pivot, to use all of the knowledge that they've had from their job, like a like a teacher. But look to to utilize that in a different way. And so sales has been a really, really interesting opportunity for people.

00:53:00:21 - 00:53:23:17
JR Butler/John Davis
Have you noticed that like, like you've been there for a decade and change and have had that and I know the alumni thing is new, but just like generally, how is conversations changed in the past decade with people that are looking to get jobs? Like, like, you know, obviously me and John are unique in that we've only done done this.

00:53:23:17 - 00:53:35:18
JR Butler/John Davis
John worked in finance for a while before, but like I haven't really been able to to see what the world is outside of this. Like, so I'm curious to know, like, how these conversations change in the last decade. Like the biggest thing you've noticed?

00:53:35:23 - 00:54:04:09
Maura Sweeney
Yeah, I think I think the traditional definition of what success in work looks like has changed. So the old the old definition of working at the same place until you're 55 or 60 and retiring with a gold watch. Yeah, you know that that mindset has been gone for a long time, but every once in a while, someone who might be really listening to their elders comes in with that expectation of, Oh, but I've got to find somewhere where I can really build my career.

00:54:04:19 - 00:54:31:04
Maura Sweeney
And so some of that needs to get broken apart. Some of the traditional industries that were the go to industries for a long time like finance ten years ago, not necessarily the hot industry anymore. You know, I think tech has really taken over from that perspective. It's depending on the audience. I know at Holy Cross, I, I kept pushing Tech for about eight years ago and the students at the time were not ready for it.

00:54:31:13 - 00:54:54:10
Maura Sweeney
Now, I would guess I'm on the alumni side now, but now it's a different story. People see the value and the growth and the opportunities. And tech startups are another world that people just they weren't aware of them. They were too intimidated by them in the past. Now, the world of startups people have gotten to experience and to see them.

00:54:54:11 - 00:55:27:20
Maura Sweeney
The whole app universe has transformed the way that people work. So there's also been with the rise of the gig economy and with with the pandemic, bringing forward so many side hustles for people, I think that there's been a real shift in terms of people not really wanting to to put up with some of the the old hierarchies and the the old standards that just don't they don't feel current to who we are as professionals today.

00:55:27:20 - 00:55:35:00
JR Butler/John Davis
So most it's a good word. Good word. More shift is a good word to use that.

00:55:36:02 - 00:55:40:17
Maura Sweeney
It's almost like they need to shift group.

00:55:40:17 - 00:56:14:03
JR Butler/John Davis
Yeah there's there's definitely different expectations from the employer employee relationship and I think the last the last two years has accelerated that in a in a very unique way. Sometimes like as a as a boss, somebody who works with employees, employers, sometimes I feel like too much like sometimes, you know, and this is just like from both hiring people and helping people get jobs like the extra sometimes the expectations are like really like that that's that's not important to you that you're willing to kind of like, you know, dine on the hill for that.

00:56:14:03 - 00:56:31:19
JR Butler/John Davis
And then sometimes it is and it's like, well, okay, like, you know, and I think the job market, at least the last like 12 months, has been like, okay, you can you can kind of do that. I'm hot and you were there and I guess you weren't there in a way. But like, what do you think with what's about to happen?

00:56:31:19 - 00:56:37:04
JR Butler/John Davis
Do you think that things are going to change a little bit in terms of that relationship between the employer and employee? A little bit?

00:56:37:05 - 00:56:59:21
Maura Sweeney
You know, I'm I'm very curious because, you know, i was a recent grad when the financial crisis hit and i worked in h.r. When the financial crisis hit. So i spent the first year of my work hiring people and filling hundreds of jobs because i was the one who did all the paperwork, who greeted the candidate, set them up on computer tests, got to extend some offers.

00:56:59:21 - 00:57:25:01
Maura Sweeney
So I was doing that whole life cycle of bringing people on board, did some orientations, so saw that that full world. And then the second year of the pandemic was a hiring freeze. And I was told to look busy so that I didn't get laid off. I said, awesome, I word processing, new hire paperwork and doing orientations and we're on a hiring freeze.

00:57:25:01 - 00:57:48:18
Maura Sweeney
So I'm not sure how I'm supposed to look busy, but I mean, I saw the writing on the wall and just left on my own to get a new job. But after I left, a significant number of staff were laid off. So I think it's good to have eyes wide open in these situations. You know, I can't predict the future to know what will happen.

00:57:48:19 - 00:58:18:13
Maura Sweeney
I think inevitably there are going to be some organizations that right size, maybe they were growing too fast, maybe they were expanding too much. And I always hope that it can happen naturally through attrition, but I know that that's not always the case. But, you know, I think the best thing that candidates can do in these volatile times is to really look at their skill set, look at, hey, when was the last time I really focused on making sure my skills were fresh?

00:58:18:20 - 00:58:39:13
Maura Sweeney
Let me look at the job market to see if I did lose my job. Where would I want to go? What would I want to do? What could I apply for? It's was on a webinar earlier and the speaker talked about job browsing. So it's not a full search, but just do a job. Browse to get a lay of the land to see what would it take for me to be competitive.

00:58:39:23 - 00:59:02:06
Maura Sweeney
Because then, okay, so the floor falls out from underneath you, you'll still be okay. You've got a lay of the land, you know what's out there. There are certain industries that are not going anywhere. Hospitals are not going anywhere. Schools, like it or not, are not going anywhere. They might change shape, but there are certain organizations that you can still rely on.

00:59:02:12 - 00:59:15:23
Maura Sweeney
That to a certain degree will be recession proof. So I think the best thing that you can do is make sure that you are recession proof by focusing on yourself and still keeping those eyes open.

00:59:15:23 - 00:59:34:05
JR Butler/John Davis
That's I love that. So what do you recommend, this kind of staying sharp? Yeah. What do you recommend to stay sharp? And, you know, stay marketable, like. Right. And you know what you mentioned, like you want to be competitive in the market. So how do you keep yourself sharp?

00:59:34:07 - 00:59:59:00
Maura Sweeney
I know it's it's a great question. And it's going to change. And it's going to depend based on your industry and based on your focus area. You know, my my boss knows full well that partly because of my job, but I read job descriptions every day. I'm and not just for other people, but if something interesting comes my way, I'm reading through and I'm I'm imagining what it look like if I were to do that job for right now and hopefully for many years to come.

00:59:59:00 - 01:00:21:08
Maura Sweeney
I'm not interested in going anywhere because I love what I do and I love all of the different aspects of my role. But I having having started my career in 2000, 7008, 2009, I just have a have kind of started as a professional with the mindset that nothing is a sure thing except what you can do for yourself.

01:00:21:08 - 01:00:46:20
Maura Sweeney
So I think reading job postings to see what is out there, what are the jobs? Because jobs change all the time. Companies evolve, new departments pop up and get created to meet new needs that didn't exist five years ago. Companies get created that didn't exist five years ago. So it's understanding the market, understanding who is in the space that interests you, looking at what are the skills and the requirements that they're asking for, do you meet those?

01:00:47:01 - 01:01:07:13
Maura Sweeney
Do you need to do some trainings even on something like LinkedIn learning, some, you know, some trainings that can show, okay, I have an understanding of and I can build this knowledge. And so it's I think awareness is the biggest thing. And then then you can start to to build a learning plan for yourself. All right. Well, I need to get up on this.

01:01:07:13 - 01:01:17:14
Maura Sweeney
I need to listen to some podcasts to understand what's going on in this industry, whatever it might be.

01:01:17:14 - 01:01:29:21
JR Butler/John Davis
And it's so funny. So I think, like with me, you and John, I'm I'm closer to your age more because I, I they call it class thing now, but I stay back, right?

01:01:30:05 - 01:01:32:23
Maura Sweeney
Because you are so talented but like.

01:01:33:02 - 01:02:05:07
JR Butler/John Davis
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. My teachers just love me so much. They wanted to see me again in ninth grade twice. But like we are, all three of us are part of this. I call it like we're like transnational millennials. Like we we're not young enough that we we don't know. Like I remember pay phone training. Like, I remember calling from a payphone at the hockey rink when practice was over, doing one 800 collect and being like very mom practices over and before she had to pay for it.

01:02:05:07 - 01:02:33:22
JR Butler/John Davis
But we also like were, you know, 18, 19 when we did get a cell phone. So we know what that's like too. But we also had the shared experience of 20 and like especially like I got this huge argument last night on LinkedIn with somebody which I shouldn't do. I know that I just go down these rabbit holes sometimes, but but they like, they're like talking about like how how evil these companies are for doing layoffs.

01:02:33:22 - 01:02:54:14
JR Butler/John Davis
And it's like this is like it's this is business like, you know, like sometimes executives and boards make make bad decisions. There's no way to know that we're going to have the information that we're going to have then the gas prices that we're going to have. And you're going to hire who you're going to hire with a positive mindset and an optimistic mindset.

01:02:54:14 - 01:03:29:11
JR Butler/John Davis
And then when things start to go sideways, you have to make hard business decisions. And like my take as a transitional millennial is like the company is no you anything except that compensation and the benefits that you signed up for you and I will employee but then you get you know so I think maybe working with alumni you're kind of missing you're missing the new generation that we get to work with on a weekly basis where there's like, you know, I hate to use the word, but and maybe it's not the right word, but there's just a a little bit of entitlement expectations about like what you're getting from the organizations that you're working for.

01:03:29:11 - 01:03:42:02
JR Butler/John Davis
And and I think, like where I personally think we're lucky that we lived through 28 because we know what the real world can be like sometimes. And sometimes it sucks and it's hard and you should be prepared for it, which is exactly nice.

01:03:42:03 - 01:04:00:20
Maura Sweeney
I think it's true. And it's, you know, it's the kind of things that you can't gain the wisdom until you've lived through the hard experience. It's why if we if I were to talk to my 22 year old self, I would tell my 37 year old self to take a hike, like, whatever, I don't care not listening to you.

01:04:01:05 - 01:04:31:08
Maura Sweeney
So it's great. It's kind of the, you know, the typical generational challenges that we have with intergenerational work of there are certain commonalities about being, say, attrition, traditional college aged 18 to 24 that, you know, that feeling of invincibility or or also, you know, I think there's a lot of positivity, to be honest, in having the next generation come in and say, why are we doing this?

01:04:31:08 - 01:04:51:23
Maura Sweeney
I don't want to do this. Why are you all put up with this? I don't want to put up with this anymore. So the fact that they're demanding flexibility, the fact that they're demanding better work life, while it might drive some people crazy, it's only going to make it better for all of us. So I see it as certainly there's going to be some entitlement.

01:04:51:23 - 01:05:18:11
Maura Sweeney
There's entitlement from our generation. I'm sure I put in the time I deserve. Okay. Just because you put in the time doesn't mean you're good at your job anymore. There's a difference between those two things. So I think it's all about listening to all of those sides of the conversation, but bringing forward the positive aspects that can make good change for all of us in organizations.

01:05:18:11 - 01:05:38:14
JR Butler/John Davis
I think that's what you both times you said, I see the entitlement with myself, you know, being a Holy Cross scribe, you know, back then it was like I would totally cross in urine. I'm in New England. Some people are like, oh, wow, great spoon up here. You know, I tell somebody in the back I went to Holy Cross and now I do want to be a did you want to be a priest?

01:05:38:24 - 01:06:07:07
JR Butler/John Davis
And I'm like, No, no, it's not like that. But it's like it's like going to get stoned. They don't know. There's like four universities up here and they know like that's the view up there. But anyways, I like that idea around, you know, there's flexible ity now and people have there's different generations in the workforce. But I always hear like people have multiple careers now and back then it used to be just kind of stayed get a pension.

01:06:07:12 - 01:06:13:01
JR Butler/John Davis
Yeah. You know when you're done done, you see a lot of people change a lot more often.

01:06:14:14 - 01:06:21:14
Maura Sweeney
Yeah. I mean, the number that jumps into my head is that people will have as many as eight different careers throughout their lifetime.

01:06:22:12 - 01:06:22:19
JR Butler/John Davis
Well.

01:06:23:09 - 01:06:25:19
Maura Sweeney
Which I mean, to me.

01:06:25:19 - 01:06:29:02
JR Butler/John Davis
Okay. So how do you how do you know when.

01:06:29:05 - 01:06:37:16
Maura Sweeney
Oh, I was going to say that makes it to me. That makes life worth living. Oh, I'm going be stuck doing the same thing for my entire life. I get some change and some variety.

01:06:39:07 - 01:06:59:14
JR Butler/John Davis
I am to to talk some more. I'm with you. And I also like some of the younger people entering the workforce. They're like, I want to work at a company where it's flexible. I can work remote, I can walk my dog for an hour. The product sustainable and it has to ever last, you know, all the politics and dynamics.

01:06:59:14 - 01:07:16:01
JR Butler/John Davis
And it's just like, okay, but if Exxon Mobil offers you a job and it's a high paying job, you should probably take that too. And they're like, No, I would never. My morals don't align. So a lot of people are trying to find the perfect career or find that one job where they can just say, that's my job, that's my career.

01:07:16:22 - 01:07:22:11
JR Butler/John Davis
How do you know that? Maybe this is a trick question? How does somebody know when they're in the right career for themselves?

01:07:23:06 - 01:07:53:21
Maura Sweeney
What I that's a great question. And that is a common common sticking point for people that prevents them from moving forward is when they're looking for perfection or they're looking for something to tick every single box. And what I encourage people to do and I had a conversation with someone the other day and I could see him physically relax is I said, you you do not have to find the perfect job for the rest of your life because it doesn't exist.

01:07:53:21 - 01:08:11:06
Maura Sweeney
What you need to do is find the perfect job for right now. What do you need from your life right now? Because in one year, two years, five years, ten years, your life is going to be drastically different from what right now. And you're going to want different things. You don't know what they are. You don't know what opportunities are available to you.

01:08:11:06 - 01:08:35:03
Maura Sweeney
We can't see the future. So don't waste your time trying to plan for a future that you will never anticipate, even if you tried. I am. I can't help myself. I'm not a worrier so much. I'm a expectations manager. So I am always trying to anticipate anything that can go wrong and all of the ways that I can mitigate it.

01:08:35:17 - 01:08:58:22
Maura Sweeney
And yet, even still, reality surprises me. And inevitably, what actually happens is not something that I have imagined or rehearsed in my mind. So the same thing is true with jobs. You just need to figure out What do I need right now? If right now I need a remote job because I've got a puppy and there I don't I can't pay for a dog walker.

01:08:59:00 - 01:09:16:04
Maura Sweeney
So and they need to go for a walk twice a day. Okay. Find a remote job for right now. If in a year they want you to go into the office, guess what? Your dog is older. They don't need to be walk twice a day. Maybe you've gotten a promotion. You can pay for a dog walker now you can go into the office or you can find an office job.

01:09:16:04 - 01:09:40:01
Maura Sweeney
You know, it's it's giving yourself the flexibility that change will come and change is okay. It's not a bad thing. It can be bad, but it doesn't have to be because, you know, if you have eight, eight different careers throughout your life, that means it's okay to change jobs every few years. People don't look down upon that.

01:09:40:01 - 01:10:05:19
JR Butler/John Davis
That's great advice. I never thought of it that way. But find something that makes sense for you right now. Yeah. And like other things that I do that that people discount is like that matter are like the people you're working right? My kids, the product the product the company grows like all these things. It's like, listen, at the end of the day, you're going to be spending 80% of your time with this group of people or this manager.

01:10:06:05 - 01:10:23:20
JR Butler/John Davis
Is this somebody that you think you can learn from? This is somebody that you think you can get better underneath? Is this is this an organization that you can grow in? I think those things matter a lot more than than some of the stuff like John that you mentioned about, like sustainability and company mission and all these other things.

01:10:23:20 - 01:10:30:11
JR Butler/John Davis
It's like you almost you need to take like both a macro and a micro view sometimes, you know what I mean?

01:10:30:16 - 01:10:32:06
Maura Sweeney
You know, it's it's true and.

01:10:32:18 - 01:10:33:02
JR Butler/John Davis
Yeah.

01:10:33:10 - 01:10:33:24
Maura Sweeney
Go ahead, John.

01:10:34:04 - 01:10:53:02
JR Butler/John Davis
No, I was going to say I totally disagree. I'm just thinking of there was probably an amazing senior vice president at Kodak one day and it was like killing it. And it's a great company and then all of a sudden they're gone and it's like, you probably benefit more from working for the person than from the company itself because you never know.

01:10:53:09 - 01:11:19:04
Maura Sweeney
You know. And to that point, I'm thinking of someone that I know who once upon a time worked for Philip morris. And I don't know anyone who's going to promote smoking these days. And yet she said, she's like, you know it's a little uncomfortable to have it on my resume because of the stigma. But when I held that job, it was one of the best teams that I worked with and her focus was not on cigarets or folk.

01:11:19:05 - 01:11:43:02
Maura Sweeney
You know, she she did different work. But even still to your point, it was a great team. She learned a ton. The people that she was with were really were great. So I think it is it's important. Certainly you don't want to work for an organization. In an ideal world, the mission and the values and the product align with something that you're really comfortable with and that you fully believe in.

01:11:43:20 - 01:11:47:12
Maura Sweeney
But you also can't discount the team that you're working on.

01:11:47:12 - 01:12:11:15
JR Butler/John Davis
I totally agree. And one thing that I always been telling people since I made the transition into sales myself is when you get into sales from an entry level perspective, look at it like you're going into graduate school to learn as much about selling and business development and marketing and, you know, professional presentations and public speaking. You're going to learn all of those skills in a sales role.

01:12:11:19 - 01:12:29:24
JR Butler/John Davis
So look at it like that. Don't look at it like, Oh, I'm at the wrong sales company, right? Like we try to coach younger people that it's okay to go and do business development for x, y, z dot com and then switch a couple of years later and become a sales rep better at a different company, maybe a bigger company in a different location.

01:12:30:07 - 01:12:52:01
JR Butler/John Davis
So with that in mind, you know what? What could we be helping people with in that transition into sales from a career perspective? Like what kind of things can we be doing a little bit differently or a little bit better with people who are teachers, teachers that want to shift into to sales? How could we help them out a little bit more?

01:12:52:13 - 01:13:25:14
Maura Sweeney
Well, I think reading your book is a great start, so I'll do a shameless plug for you for that. But, you know, as as. Yes, absolutely. I mean, I I'm a if anyone could see me, I've got books surrounding me. And so I appreciate a good book. I think the key thing for anyone who's looking to get into a new career and so who's looking to get into sales is I think about it in terms of getting as close to the experience as possible.

01:13:26:09 - 01:13:52:01
Maura Sweeney
So the way that we become more comfortable with something is and the way we become more successful is by being familiar with it. Because when we're familiar with the lingo, with the work that's done with the people in this case, with the product, it makes it that much easier to make that transition because it doesn't feel like all of a sudden I'm dropped in China and I'm asked to speak Chinese and I've had no training.

01:13:52:01 - 01:14:08:06
Maura Sweeney
No. Instead, I was a French major at Holy Cross. And so if I was dropped in France right now, I do okay, because I had so many years of French language. I've lost a whole lot of vocabulary. But I know I could pick it up if if I was in the space, because I'm very familiar with it still.

01:14:08:09 - 01:14:32:04
Maura Sweeney
And so as much as people can understand, you know, these are the types of skills that you would need. This is the type of environment. These are the people. It's that informational networking. It's that research that they can do on their own, doing some trainings, getting out there, using the product, understanding why would someone want this? What problem does it solve?

01:14:32:04 - 01:14:55:05
Maura Sweeney
Who is their key market that they work with? All of those things I think can build a lot of that familiarity to make someone feel a lot more confident about making the transition, feel a lot more confident, talking the talk in the interview and really showing them that, look, I'm not trying to convince you that maybe I can do this.

01:14:55:12 - 01:15:04:06
Maura Sweeney
I've done my research. I know I can do this. I know what I'm talking about. And how does that resonate with you? Because you're the experts on this. You talk to people about this all the time.

01:15:06:00 - 01:15:29:00
JR Butler/John Davis
I love it. I love that answer because it because we overemphasize we do an entire course on preparation and like digging in and like, you know, one of the one of the things we require of candidates before they interview is being able to explain what the product does. Someone at a bar like you can't it's not like like we, we work with some fairly technical softwares and solutions.

01:15:29:24 - 01:15:55:17
JR Butler/John Davis
So the expectation is not like, hey, can you explain it to an expert, but can you explain it to someone at a bar, your mom, you know, your dad or whatever, right? Like that's kind of how I've always measured understanding is if I can break it down as simple from a complex thing to a simple explanation, that means I understand it so I think that idea of preparation to create comfort and confidence is a no brainer.

01:15:55:19 - 01:16:28:21
JR Butler/John Davis
That's awesome. Spot on bar and it's exactly like Jared's doing that. The shift group university like that. So when we first started placing athletes and say, okay, you must have some time management skills, we can prep for an interview here. But now that that content is focusing more on, okay, this is what a sports account executive, this is BTR, this is what Salesforce.com and it's when somebody says this, this is what they mean and really exposing them to the lingo and the terms and the expectations.

01:16:28:21 - 01:16:33:12
JR Butler/John Davis
I think that's that's a great take on it. I've never heard it put that way, but that's a great. They love.

01:16:33:12 - 01:16:41:24
Maura Sweeney
It. Well, I'm not surprised that this is already within your realm. I'm not surprised.

01:16:41:24 - 01:17:23:01
JR Butler/John Davis
And I think we're pretty close. I don't know, Daria, but the questions I had one more question, because I'm more curious than anything else, more like we obviously we specifically work with core athletes because because athletes have like some characteristics that we find that I found as a as a, you know, lifelong sales leader or career long sales sales leader that are usually they translate success, things like resiliency, being motivated by competition, you know, being coachable, being, you know, a super, super like growth mindset oriented.

01:17:23:09 - 01:17:43:04
JR Butler/John Davis
These are all things that athletes have. And like, you know, I come from a family of athletes and coaches and, you know, like I use my brother a lot as an example because my brother played in the Olympics like he got to the highest level you can possibly get it in sports. And I love my brother dearly, but he could he couldn't be a salesperson.

01:17:43:04 - 01:18:11:05
JR Butler/John Davis
Like, I just don't think like one, he wouldn't enjoy it. And two, like he probably wouldn't be very good at it. How do you handle like how how do you handle that conversation or figure that or help somebody figure it out where it's like because we get athletes sometimes and they're quiet, they're reserved, and like you can tell like they're not going to be comfortable being uncomfortable, which is you spend like 99% of sales is like you're very uncomfortable.

01:18:11:12 - 01:18:31:23
JR Butler/John Davis
You're talking about stuff that you really don't understand. And people are saying no to you constantly. And I'm like, Man, like, this isn't going to work. How do you handle that conversation? Like you meet somebody, maybe it's a teacher, maybe it's somebody from another career where they're like, Hey, I want to do sales. Like, what? What does that conversation look like from your perspective?

01:18:32:01 - 01:19:05:24
Maura Sweeney
Yeah. And you know, I'm thinking about a lot of different this is true for a lot of different industries. And if someone thinks they might want to do this and then they learn more about it or, you know, talk to people and they're saying, like, now this isn't you wouldn't be right, you know, the first thing that came to mind when you were talking about just the the traits that you see that are so common in athletes is and so I got I'm a certified strength coach up through Gallup and so Gallup is the the 34 Clifton strengths that used to be called strength finder.

01:19:05:24 - 01:19:36:17
Maura Sweeney
And so it's all about understanding who you are and what drives you and what what makes you the wonderful person that you are. And what's really interesting about it is that competition, there are a lot of different words. They have competition. They have a defined a certain way as a strength. And the way that they define competition is that it's someone who has a strong strength in competition, drives energy and is very good at competing with other people.

01:19:37:16 - 01:20:15:11
Maura Sweeney
There are also other strengths, like I hold the strength of achiever as my number one people who know me well. This is no surprise. And for me, achiever is not competition. It's I am striving to do my best. Always. And so it's a much more of an internal competition as opposed to an external competition. And I was an athlete for a lot of my life and I didn't always sometimes that that competition on the field or on the water really got me going and working harder.

01:20:15:11 - 01:20:42:11
Maura Sweeney
But it didn't always do that. And so some for some people it's that internal drive to make themselves better that drives them. And so to get to that example that you talked about in terms of sales, some people who have that internal drive will also, you know, might be driven to do a sales role if they also have some strong relationship building talents that can come together.

01:20:43:21 - 01:21:05:13
Maura Sweeney
But that might not be true of everyone. So I think this is where those big questions of understanding for people, what motivates you? Do you get really motivated by looking at the person next to you in the race and seeing how well you're doing against them? Or do you get motivated by beating your number and by getting faster yourself or getting stronger?

01:21:06:02 - 01:21:29:10
Maura Sweeney
And so it's it's helping people to understand what that what drives them, what their strengths are. And then looking at, okay, what's the environment and what are the different roles that can allow you to do that really, really well? So it could be that the sales environment is a fit, but they'd be better off in the background in operations because they've got that.

01:21:29:10 - 01:21:48:02
Maura Sweeney
They understand the competition and they like being part of the team. They're just not going to be on the front, front lines. They're not the person who's going to do well in that situation. But they can they can be on the back. It's like the, you know, the second string who is critical to helping make sure that the the first string is well prepared for the live game.

01:21:48:17 - 01:22:15:17
Maura Sweeney
They might not play the night of the game, but they're still working really hard and they're still a critical member of the team and that the first string is not going to succeed if they don't have a great practice team to work with. So it's a I think again, it all comes down to that self-knowledge. And so for me, having those conversations isn't difficult because if anything, I think it be awful if I had to, for someone to work in an area where I knew that they'd be unhappy.

01:22:16:15 - 01:22:25:09
Maura Sweeney
And it's helping them to understand there is another place where you can work and get paid and also be happy. You don't have to sacrifice that right?

01:22:27:02 - 01:22:51:19
JR Butler/John Davis
100%. Yeah, that there's no trade. It doesn't have to be a trade off. I agree. Yeah, this was such a great conversation. I think one thing that I love to leave people with are you you do this every day. Do you have any favorite resources for career development books, podcasts, newsletter? I know we dropped one book on the audience and any others on that front that we can leave them with?

01:22:52:05 - 01:23:11:06
Maura Sweeney
Yeah, so I do. I've got some bookshelf in front of me and one behind me and one that's that's really, really great. It's called switchers Don Graham. It's an orange book with an arrow on the front. If you're a visual visual person or if you still like hard books like I do, it's really great for someone who's making a career switch.

01:23:11:10 - 01:23:45:16
Maura Sweeney
I hear that she also has an A radio show. A talk radio show. I haven't listened, but I've really appreciated the book. What else have we got? There's also so one of my favorite podcasts is called Coaching Real Leaders. That is kind of a holistic view on, on, on coaching and kind of understanding the world of work. There's another great podcast by Adam Grant talking about the new world of work that I really enjoy, Harvard Business Review.

01:23:45:22 - 01:23:56:08
Maura Sweeney
I like any of their podcasts that they put out. I try and listen to as much as possible and what else we got. Others are just looking.

01:23:58:03 - 01:24:05:10
JR Butler/John Davis
To keep them company. Typically, we'll put them in the show notes below the episode so people can find.

01:24:05:16 - 01:24:31:23
Maura Sweeney
As is the other one. Oh, there's another one for anyone who's getting just getting started. There's a book called Now What? It's 90 Days to a New Life Direction. It's a really good starting point for anyone who's never stopped to think about what they want to do, and they feel like they're at square one. The book can give a really nice way to walk people through.

01:24:31:23 - 01:24:40:08
Maura Sweeney
So those are those are some that I think would be good to just start out with. Yeah.

01:24:40:08 - 01:24:53:11
JR Butler/John Davis
What about to get some interesting points with that with those suggestions. I love that Moira, this was such a great conversation and very unique for us, but I think the audience oh, it really is.

01:24:53:23 - 01:24:59:04
Maura Sweeney
Just is so much fun. Anything I could do to support you guys and to support the work that you're doing. I am game. So thank you.

01:25:00:13 - 01:25:03:17
JR Butler/John Davis
Awesome. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

01:25:04:02 - 01:25:05:03
Maura Sweeney
Awesome. You too.

01:25:05:03 - 01:25:32:08
JR Butler/John Davis
Thank you so much more. Thank you. This wraps up this episode of Making Some Change. If you enjoyed this episode, the most meaningful way to say thanks is to submit a review wherever you listen to the podcast. If you're interested in working with us, please come find us at WW dot shift group dot I.